Logic and DP

[dreamaiden]

This is for Stephen if he gets a Mac or anyone else. This is just my opinion. I'm sure others who know Logic better can provide more input.

I have been using Digital Performer since version 3. I changed to Logic last year because of the arrange window and all the many millions of little Apple friendly things, such as click for Loop, and bounce midi and audio files simultaneously and to multiple formats such as aif and mp3 in one swoop. There are too many of these little things to mention but they all simply make the experience so much easier and fun.

When I first started with Logic, I spent too long trying to figure out how the heck you set it up for external midi keyboards and how the midi routing works. Tutorials, manuals, posts... it was almost like it was a taboo subject. And now I know why. heh. Somebody was on drugs when they created that part and they don't want to talk about it ! I like to say it gives new meaning to the phrase 'Think Different.' After a month or so I finally got the hang of it but it was still awkward at best, and quite frankly makes me want to go get some of those drugs so I don't have to deal with it.

However, one day I sat back and pondered... Maybe Apple doesn't really want you to use external midi keyboards ! While that is possibly not true, I spent an entire night just using Logic's soft synths as well as other ones I had. Well this was certainly a horse of a different color. What a breeze ! And now all of the Logic conveniences really made the experience a dream come true. Click new track, select plug-in, done. So I decided Fine. I will change my studio to accommodate Logic. And so I did. I'm glad I did but I wouldn't have if Logic hadn't pushed me in that direction. I still need one master keyboard and will probably get an M3 or M4.

The other day I mentioned something about the midi routing in Logic to a friend and found this in part of a post. It describes some differences between DP and Logic. I think it is a fair assessment although I hated chunks in DP and I do most of my (light) audio editing right in the Logic arrange window so far. I thought it might be helpful or interesting to someone else so here it is.

__________________________________

Logic:
- Performance, it is much more efficient. 
- Freezing and bouncing of tracks, again, more efficient. You do not have to record down all your virtual instruments to bounce out a project like you do in DP.
- Better built in synths and effects. With the exception of Pattern Gate which there is no replacement in Logic. Most people probably don't use this that much, but I did, and I miss it.
- MIDI Editing. Hands down I like this WAY better than DP. 
- Multiple instrument in and MIDI routing in Logic is definitely not as easy as it is in DP, and I find this to be something that needs serious attention, however, I have written Apple about it with some suggestions on fixing it. What I mean here is using more than one keyboard at one time in Logic is not as simple as DP. 
- Comp feature is absolutely awesome. One of the best features

DP:
- Audio editing is superior. I really dislike editing audio in Logic compared to DP. If you plan to use the DAW more like a recorder, you'll be better off with DP. 
- Scoring. DP allows for multiple songs (called chunks) to be in one file that you can arrange in a sequence. This makes it VERY nice for moving things around when the video editor starts moving things around.
- Virtual Racks. You can load up instruments to be used across several songs. Again, for scoring this is VERY nice.
- Midi routing. It is SO easy to use multiple input controllers it's not even funny. If you plan on using 2 or more keyboards at the same time, I cannot stress how well this is done in DP.
- Midi ARP. Midi track have plugins just like audio tracks. Using an ARP is so easy and doesn't require the crazy hookups in the environment like it does in Logic.

This is a quick list off the top of my head. I do more midi than anything else, so for me, Logic wins right now hands down. It's fast, it's efficient, and the comping is amazing for vocal work.

I still use DP when I am tracking live instruments (guitar, bass, jam sessions) because the audio editing for me just makes more sense. That said, I still bring it over to Logic for everything else. They are both AMAZING programs, so I hope some of this insight will help. Everyone will tell you, it really comes down to what you need.

[Stephen]

Thanks Susan.
MIDI is something I rarely use, in fact If I didn't use EZ Drummer, it would be reduced to never!

That said, how do they fare if I'm working in strictly audio?
Regards,

[blitzdj86]

dreamaiden, have you tried ableton Live?

I prefer it to logic for everything, except the logic built-in plugins, which are on a whole other level.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of ableton's MIDI effect plugins and audio editing capabilities against DP's.

[dreamaiden]

Stephen, I didn't know you work entirely in audio. Good job on performance then.

I have no problem working with audio in Logic or DP. In Logic, I don't usually do a lot of detailed work on audio so I just do what I need to in the arrange window. There is also a sound byte window which I've used for closer work. The one caveat to some is that if you want to do more detailed audio editing you have to open another program called Soundtrack Pro. I think I'm telling this correctly. I haven't used it yet but I guess I'll get to it eventually. I'm not sure why they did this. One possibility is that maybe they wanted to segment operations. I have Final Cut Studio and it comes with Soundtrack Pro and Compressor (I use it for video compression), both of which comes with Logic.

One reason I like Logic is because it is so integrated with everything Apple which just makes things nice. I mentioned the other conveniences like the Loop function and bounce and that arrange window is to die for. There are many of these. It came with about 100 plug-ins (instruments, fx, mastering plugs, etc.) plus a million Apple Loops which are very usable, so really everything you need is there and they are pretty darn good in my opinion. Of course you can always go better on the never ending path to perfection.

On the stability front I have to give DP the award there. They are solid as a rock. On the flip side they don't update often and aren't nearly as creative in the user friendly experience as Apple. Apple on the other hand sometimes puts out things a little too fast and then they have to backtrack and fix things but overall things seem to be solid. I just don't jump on updates until I know they are solid.

Lots of very pro people use Logic and Final Cut Studio so I feel like I'm in the right arena for me. More importantly I just really like this arena. Good vibes.


Hi blitzd. I have not tried Live. I almost did but decided not to take on yet another DAW. My goal is to streamline my process and tools and get to know them well so I can be in producer mode entirely instead of tech head all the time. Sometimes less is more and constraining yourself to less makes you get creative within the constraints. We'll see how that works out, lol. I have more than I know well now and enough I think to keep me occupied for a long time. I would like to see a comparison of Logic and Live though. It would be interesting. I have definitely heard a lot of good things about it. This would be definitely be good for Stephen to know too. Maybe I can find a comparison out there.

[Daz]

that arrange window is to die for

That's the one thing that for me that makes Logic my choice over DP, despite DP having better audio manipulation (offline especially). That situation has been somewhat improved in Logic, now that you can use the included copy of Soundtrack Pro for offline editing. I have a shortcut key set up to open an audio clip in Soundtrack Pro where I can do wave level editing and also apply effects (it includes most of the logic effects and supports AU's too). That works well enough for the moment, even it is "destructive" editing.

Apple did a lot of work in Logic 8 to improve usability, and basic tasks like adding tracks, aux busses, handling multiple output AU's etc. Far less faff

My current favourite piece of music tech is Toontrack EZDrummer. It sounds great and is a breeze to use. Just load it up in logic, route every part of the kit to it's own output channel and apply your effects to each hit to make it either sit in the mix properly or sculpt each hit with more exotic effects if I want something less traditional sounding. I far prefer this than my previous approach of using Battery or Stylus in kit mode and auditioning a lots of individual hits to build a kit. I have two kits installed in EZ drummer, so I have the basic choice of which to use, everything else in terms of sound sculpting/mix is done by effecting what it spits out, rather than wading through loads of different samples for each part of the kit trying to find what I want. The EZ drummer kits use some great sounding samples with plenty of velocity layers so it's a very dynamic sound, far more feel/expressiveness when drum programming.

I came to EZ drummer via Waves GTR (guitar effects plugin) funnily enough. I got GTR at Xmas and whilst looking at the video material I found this :

http://www.waves.com/Objects/waves_vide ... r_solo.swf

That set me on the track of thinking about the idea of just using a single really great dynamic kit and getting to the sound I wanted using effects. Admittedly I am moving away from being electronica based to a more alt-rock kind of deal, so a natural drum sound was more appropriate, but even still this approach has lots of flexibility even if you don't want too traditional a sound.

There's too much music tech which is too techy, too much geared towards fiddling about, and this simple plugin is great in that it just does one job well and feels more musical than techy.

Daz.

[dreamaiden]

Well Daz, that's really amazing. I'm just on the same drum path but haven't quite finished yet. I also recently concluded that what I really needed was a basic kit that I love and would use for most of my work, that I could then edit as needed. So I built my perfect kit in Stylus kit mode. I like a flat dry 808 thump kick and a real hi hat that is crisp. I also built one in iDrum believe it or not. In Stylus I am then able to use the Mixer page to dial up fx, or in iDrum, set each channel to an aux which is set up in Logic where I can then add fx. The only drama left is drum patterns. I've been toying with Groove Monkey and it works but is not my ideal. When you drop them into Logic it creates 2 EXSPiano tracks, one with what looks to be a control change and the groove on the other track, so you have to arrange that. A little messy but workable. Decent grooves.

I know that EZDrummer comes with plenty of patterns though I'm sure they are proprietary like Addictive Drums (which I don't use). I've heard that EZDrummer sounds great and I wish I had gotten it instead of AD although AD does sound good and loads easily. I couldn't get the sound I wanted out of it although I know it can be done.

What I really wish for is great drum patterns that I can throw into Logic and use with any drum program, including Ultrabeat, easily and quickly, and that I can get to quickly without having to sort through a gazillion of them to find what I want - Stylus interface with patterns to choose from would be nice. Lately I've taken to simply starting with a Groove Monkey pattern and programming the drums myself. Looking back, I wish I had taken drum lessons at the beginning and persisted in learning to program my own drums. I can't tell you how much time and money I have spent in the quest for drums, lol. I'm determined to get it though and in the end have a good streamlined process.

That GTR plug is great. Very interesting video and surprising to see it just being used on drums. Good video. I also noticed that you can download GTR Solo and use it free for one year. Cool beans. Thanks for sharing those thoughts and links.

[laughing_bear]

something worth a look


http://www.submersiblemusic.com/

[rainy-taxi]

I'm a DP user for some time now. Tried logic but I can't get my things done with that. I'm really not understanding the works of it. DP is easier for me (as in setting up the console etc.)

For live performances, DP are also very nice. You have "chunks" which are basically little projects on their own with mixing desk, tracks (audio and midi, unlimited), time signatures, cue points and so on. You can route tracks to the V-rack and very interesting, you can assign a keystroke (or even a midi event) to open them up.

So for our band I have just one DP project with 16 chunks in it. Every chunk is a song. I have one shared V-rack with all processing and standard drummachines setup. For some chunks, specific virtual instruments and routings are setup which are then disgarded if I am in a different chunk. I use the function keys on my mac to recall them (I have an apple keyboard on my wavestation). Works as a charm!

[Zorroinhell]

So I once called Korg and they gave me the answer to the following question but I lost the paper I wrote it on. I unplugged my Triton LE because I moved, so the ability to have the LE as the master is gone and the songs I have in-put with the LE only plays back the one bass line out of the two that I have set up on two separate track among sound and a funk bass sound. Always getting stuck midi notes. All my connections are good and the set-up is showing up on the Audio Midi set up window as fine.
Before when Korg was answering questions by phone they helped me set things up, twice and I wrote it down but since I moved I can't find the steps to make things right again! HELP PLEASE!!
Dave