PA2 latest version all Styles needed

[Choros]

Hi Fellows,

I need all factory styles (only the Style folder) of PA2 late version.
Have to convert inside KORG family keys.
Can somone help.
Please p.m. me or I will p.m. you. Thanks!

Choros

[Rob Sherratt]

Be careful about copyright. The person exporting the factory styles from the Pa2x and sending them to you for use in another product would certainly be breaking the law.

[karmathanever]

The person exporting the factory styles from the Pa2x and sending them to you for use in another product would certainly be breaking the law

Hi Rob
Is that actually true? (Genuine question - not argument )

I know this has come up many times before even back in the i3 days but I can never recall a formal answer or definition relating to "style copyright".

It seems like they are openly copied across different vendors. I notice that Yamaha have copies of Korg i3/i30 styles - plus all those on e-bay who are selling products (DVDs) comprising "converted" styles from various vendors (like the old USB company (Universal Style Bank)).
I have never really been clear about "copyright" (if there is any) when it comes to "styles".
Wouldn't EMC and the like technically be "pirating" software?
Wouldn't actually playing those styles in public also be an issue?
Recording using those styles (for production and resale)?

I would like to hear Korg's formal resonse to this.
Does it perhaps vary from vendor to vendor also?

Couple of scenarios:-
1. I copy a style from my Yamaha and build it on my PA2X (illegal?) - many such styles on the Korg forums!!
2. I use a stock standard SSD factory style (intros,fills,vars etc..) to record my new song and I make a million $$ (do I owe Korg?)
It has been done - e.g. there are TV advertisements that clearly use arranger keyboards' styles and I bet those marketing companies do not share their huge advertising profits with the keyboard vendors.

Just (still) curious....
Cheers

Pete

[mrniceneasy]

This is an opinion......

My idea of ''right and proper'' copyright would be that the Owner of that idea, whether it be Styles or otherwise would have to actualy 'Register' that idea with the relevant Authorising body. This is what the Author's/Inventor's of Branded goods do so that they can't legally be copied without recompense. I doubt that Owners of Styles actually do copyright them with relevant bodies, I think they would assume a 'Blanket' approval inclusion with respect to their particular keyboard brand. No doubt the actual name of the keyboard eg. 'Korg pa2x' is a copyrighted name but I doubt the mechanics/electronics of the machine have been copyrighted other than through the original component manufacturers. They would be 'Licenced'. So would Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, etc, bring a case against someone that had copied their styles. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of this on the www. The Big Guns will of course say that it can't be done because of Intellectual Right's, but it is done all the time with thousand upon thousands of styles on the Internet plus the software as the means of converting and tweaking them. I think it's a Rollercoaster Ride that cannot possibly be stopped other than the manufacturers making it impossible or very difficult to make styles backward compatible and as we've all seen that's the waY that most Keyboard manufacturers are going with their new Models.

Permissions... I have the 8/16 beat styles from pa2x recorded on my website. TBleck has the styles for pa800 recorded onhis Website, with full permission from Korg Germany for us both,... Email reply permission below...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alexander Hinz [mailto: @ a.hinz korgmore.de] On behalf of KM Hotline
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May 2009 17:45
MP3 request due to acoustic examples around mid-March 2009

Thank you for your e-mail request.

The general rule is that an owner of a Korg Pa-instrument the full performance of his instrument for his compositions and arrangements can be used. Even a production of an audio CD is nothing in this way. With the purchase of the instrument were also the rights to use the internal programming styles and sounds, etc. acquired.

If you have further questions, so please. In this sense, I remain,

Yours sincerely, from Marburg

Alexander Hinz
C O R G Product Specialist

[karmathanever]

Thanks Keith - very interesting e-mail.

Here are some guidelines, how large the number of cycles may be used, in which the note sequences with another piece of music overlap.

Certainly applies to a composition - similarly that goes for lyrics too. Unless I have misunderstood something, I still do not have any definitive answer regarding "Styles" and "copyright".

With the purchase of the instrument were also the rights to use the internal programming styles and sounds, etc. acquired.

Yes that's true but if that wasn't the case, they would never sell the keyboard - the question is "can you use the styles for other purposes?" like recording and selling songs, reproducing the styles on other equipment (different keyboards/sequencers etc..) - so they need to clearly define the word "use" in the above context.

Taking this a little further, I notice that in some live performances, the manufacturers' logos have been removed (keyboards, drums, etc...) - maybe this is the choice of the owner but I am not sure??? Is there a law dictating whether you can actually expose the "Korg/Yamaha/Roland..." logos on the instruments when you play in public?

And so it goes on.....

These questions were raised back in the i-series forums many years ago - never ever received any confirmation or clear definition.

I refer back to Rob's comment

The person exporting the factory styles from the Pa2x and sending them to you for use in another product would certainly be breaking the law

- there are styles from Yamaha keyboards converted for Korg in the download section of our forums....

I remain completely unsure....

Cheers

Pete

[mrniceneasy]

Hi Pete, I think that Rob's statement really does apply with regard to the latest keyboards and the Manufacturers have given an indication that they DON'T want their styles copied from now on as they are trying to make the latest keyboards with style format's that can't be copied. Well at least Korg have accomplished that with the pa2x wheras Yamaha have failed with the Tyros3....
I don't honestly think that the manufacturers will go after anyone for copyright infringement with regard to the 'older' styles that are freely available all over the web. It's just the latest keyboard styles that they are keen to protect. Just try and post the latest styles from any recent keyboard and it's asking for trouble, when that keyboard is superceded by a new Model then that I think would be relaxed more and more with more new Model's arriving..... Just my view but the evidence of previous years and the release and conversion of thousand upon thousand of styles bears that out......I for one have no problem with converting and posting 'older' styles onto the www. I won't publicly post the later ones though for the reasons stated above. JMHO

[Rob Sherratt]

Here is a summary of Copyright law as it applies in Europe and USA:

• 1. Copyright ownership of any "original work" is automatically vested in the author at the time of publication, so long as the author identifies him/her self and can prove the date of publication.
  
  2. If you create a "derived work" or sell or give away something whose copyright is owned by someone else while the original author is still living or within 70 years of their death, you are in breach of international copyright law unless the copyright owner has given you consent. The copyright owner can sue you for more money than you can afford, house savings, and all possessions and future earnings etc!
  
  3. If the "derived work" is a piece of music performed at a private party with friends and family and no money is involved then it would be classed as your "personal use" which is permitted so long as you had purchased a copy of the original piece of work yourself.
  
  4. If your "derived work" is sold or given away then the copyright owner of the original work has to give permission ... usually this happens following the agreement to pay the copyright owner a royalty per copy that is sold or given away. In the case of the recordings of a steinway piano that I used recently to make a "free giveaway" to Pa2x owners, the University of Iowa are the copyright owners. They gave permission for this without requiring payment of a royalty so long as no money was charged.
  
  5. If the "derived work" is a performance in front of any members of the public then it is classed as a "public performance" and international Copyright law applies. However, a different type of license is needed, and normally the owner or provider of the performance venue is responsible for arranging this. The responsibility for granting public performance licenses varies from country to country.
  
  6. In the case of samples, programs, styles and combis for Korg keyboards, Korg are the Copyright owners. They have stated their copyright licensing policy in writing in the user manuals for their products. Owners of Korg keyboards are permitted to create and record audio music using the facilities provided inside the Korg products, and the audio music "derived work" can be sold, performed in public or whatever, and no license fee has ever been demanded by Korg (even though in theory they could ask for a percentage). However the "original work" which is the source data comprising the samples, programs, styles and combis can not be given away or sold under any conditions. For example, if you give away Styles or Samples identical to, or using the data of the Korg originals, you will be breaking the law, and Korg can sue you for a lot of money.
  
  7. If the "derived work" uses such a small amount of the "original work" that the "original work" is completely unrecognizable, then no-one will know or care about it. A percentage rule is applied in disputed cases in the USA, where if less than 1-2% of the "original work" has been used, and provided credit is given, then there is deemed to be no infringement of copyright. In a similar way you can publish a book in which you include quotations of no more than 1-2% of someone else's book, and that is permitted without requiring a license.

If you think that giving away copies of someone else's property is a trivial thing, then you are totally, totally naive and wrong. And it's so easy to see when it's going on ... especially when people publish on a public forum asking for something that is paramount to theft. Settlements and damages going through the USA courts can exceed $400 million as typified by the recent case of Microsoft being sued for using someone else's property without permission (an XML editing method) within the Microsoft Word product.

It doesn't matter what your opinion about copyright law is. It doesn't matter whether you think the typical damage settlements in USA courts are fair or not. It is there, the risk of prosecution is real. It would ruin you and your family's future if you were prosecuted. Don't risk it and don't place the forum owner - Sharp - at risk either!

Regards,
Rob

[Rob Sherratt]

The definitive USA version of copyright law is here:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf

The terms of use of the above document are that it is made available for free use by members of the public by the Library of Congress USA.

A nice summary for the UK is here:
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law

Regards,
Rob

[Sharp]

Hi guys.

At this moment in time I have no problem with anyone sharing factory styles on the forum. What I will do however it try get the final answer on this so there is no confusion ever again going forward.

I've explained the situation to Rob by PM about how I came to this conclusion but it's confidential information and he can't tell you what I just told him.

All I can say is right now I have no problem with anyone sharing factory styles. What you cannot share is files you purcahsed from KORG or anyone else. Individal or sets of styles sold are indeed copyrighted.

Regards
Sharp.

[mrniceneasy]

Copyright is a minefield but I still think the Keyboard Manufacturers have better things to do than chase after individuals who convert and use their styles. It is rather a compliment to that Manufacturer that people want to use their styles. In some way that helps to convert the User to their Brand so ensuring their future viability. I agree that blatant disregard of the law, especially with the latest flavours, is asking for big trouble but older version's of styles have been prevelant for years and even styles that have come from keyboards of only a couple of years old are freely available on the web if you search for them.......JMHO

I guess the real SAFE answer is to NOT share anything at all and make the Web a sterile place.

[charlie67]

quite agree with you mrniceneasy, but isn't it nice to have secrets?

[karmathanever]

Rob, Keith, Sharp

Thanks for all the feedback - this is the best I have seen and heard so far.
I am hopeful that we will get some real answers.

I agree totally that one should NOT share/pirate ANY purchased products.
With regard to styles (which is my main concern) where do we stand if we (for example) take factory styles from the PA2X - convert them (via MIDI) and rebuild them on the Tyros (wouldn't that be great for Tyros owners ) - is that infringing on copyright? I am not sure why "older" styles would be classed differently...

What you cannot share is files you purcahsed from KORG or anyone else

Absolutely but what if one took the style and performed a conversion (EMC or whatever) for another keyboard? Like all the styles on e-bay?

The problem is that a "STYLE" is not a piece of music as in a composition - I can't see how it can be "owned". Copyright laws do not make this clear at all. Of course if the style is in a proprietary file format then it is definitely "owned" but if it is just in MIDI format....

Look forward to Sharp's feedback....

Thanks again guys.

Cheers

Pete

[BasariStudios]

Forget about opinions, forget about rules and playing nice and wasting time,
let all of us be honest and open:
NOTHING IS ILEGAL, DO AS YOU PLEASE AND TRUST ME ON THIS ONE!
NOBODY AS I KNOW OFF WENT TO JAIL FOR ANYTHING LIKE THIS AND
ALMOST THE WHOLE WORLD IS COPIED ILEGALLY AND TRANSFERED!
But hey, dont get caught nor post here what you did. Today its even
legal to copy them, convert them and then resell them, as in most cases.

---thats base on facts how the REAL world works, besides rules---

Now the TRUE legality is another thing which can only be debated and
explained but never followed. We have all our say in here but none followed.
On the other side when you pay 3500$ for a machine trust me you bought
all of the rights on anything and everything on that machine.

[paul]

On the other side when you pay 3500$ for a machine trust me you bought
all of the rights on anything and everything on that machine.

cheers
paul

[Rob Sherratt]

Copying or distributing someone else's copyrighted property is not a matter of criminal law. As basari says, you will never go to jail. It is a matter of civil law where the person whose property you have copied or distributed without their permission can sue you in a civil court action. In cases of copyright damages, the author will often be awarded so much money that you will have to sell your house, car, boat and work for the rest of your life to pay off the debt.

Imagine you bought the DVD media for all the "Harry Potter" films. You upload the digital content of all those DVDs to your web site, and you advertise them so everyone else in the world can download them from your web site. Do you really think you have permission to do that, just because you bought the DVD media? How much do you think it cost the producers to create the films? I expect we are talking about in excess of $200 million. If your act of copying and distributing the DVD's via the Internet is traced to you, then believe me the film producers WILL come after you and will sue you for a significant percentage of the $200 million it cost them to produce the films.

As Basari and Sharp and I know, the cost of creating all the sounds and styles contained in the Pa800 and Pa2x keyboards amounts to tens of millions of Euros in labor costs alone. Just producing one top quality sound, say the Irish Acts megapiano took over 6 weeks continuous work for both Sharp and me. There is no way that purchasing the right to use one copy of that piano from Irish Acts for 35 Euros compensates for 6 weeks continuous work for two people. And if you copy and distribute it to all your friends, it is the same as theft of someone else's income.

So when Basari says ...

"when you pay 3500$ for a machine trust me you bought all of the rights on anything and everything on that machine"

... do you think it is true that you can copy the internal digital contents and maybe reverse engineer the software for use on another product, maybe a keyboard that you are designing for sale yourself? When he advises you

"NOTHING IS ILEGAL, DO AS YOU PLEASE AND TRUST ME ON THIS ONE"

... do you think you can extract samples and styles and copy DVD's and CD's and publish them on the Internet and distribute them to all your friends? Do you think the owners of those samples and styles would not care? What you do in private and within your closed group of family and friends is up to you and your conscience. No-one will ever find out that you are breaking the law. Once you start posting copies of anything to the Internet that was created by someone else, then you can be sued by the copyright owner unless the copyright owner has given consent.

Now, what Sharp is doing behind the scenes is asking Yamaha whether they will give consent e.g. for styles from the Tyros 3 etc to be converted and made available on Korg Forums for download and use on Korg Pa800 and Pa2x keyboards. What do you think? Are Yamaha likely to give consent for this when Korg are one of their direct rivals? The only case of consent that I know about is from Korg who have converted styles from the i30, Pa80, Pa1x etc for use on the Pa800, Pa2x etc. They have published many such style conversions on their own web site. Also rikkisbears and mrniceneasy have been writing a lot of original styles them selves and they have given them away free of charge. Even in the cases of rikkisbears and mrniceneasy and korg, suppose I set up an Ebay shopping site and start selling styles written by rikkisbears and mrniceneasy and korg. Do you think that would be legal? No it is not, because rikkisbears and mrniceneasy and korg are still the authors and owners of copyright and they would have to give permission to anyone who wants to redistribute or sell their work.

Frankly, I am amazed and disappointed, Basari, that someone who runs his own music production business has written the statements you have done in this thread. In the past you have sent me some of your styles and sounds for my own use and for testing purposes. Suppose I set up an ebay shop and start selling them for say $30 a copy which is a lot less than is charged by you. What would happen? Will you say

"NOTHING IS ILEGAL, DO AS YOU PLEASE AND TRUST ME ON THIS ONE" ?

Come on people, get real. If you are going to copy and distribute someone else's material, then do it quietly and privately without telling anyone else you've done it. And don't publish crap on a public user forum that encourages other people to break the law.

Regards,
Rob