Kaoss Pad 3 output level too low

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:05 pm

Hi,

Im trying to get my KP3 working well with my rane 68 mixers fx send/return.

The problem is that the output from KP3 is far too low and i have to turn input on kp3 till it clips/in the red for it to match the level off music.

On my old dj mixer (vestax 08 ) this was not a problem as the mixer had 3 gain settings for the receive bus so was easy to use. There is no gain control on Rane 68's receive bus

Is there any way of setting the kp3 output higher(cant find any) or am i going to have to use some sort of amp in between kp3's output and the receive on mixer?

Any help appreciated, thx

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:45 pm

What does Rane Tech Support have to say? This is a problem with your mixer, not the KP3. The KP3 puts out a proper line output level.

Only if Rane Tech Support confirms the problem and doesn't have any solution for it, then you can use the Headphone output of the KP3 to drive the Effects Return. But I'm warning you that if you attempt to do this before checking with Rane then you have a good chance of frying the effects return on your mixer with too much power.

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:13 pm

they aint saying anything on my posts about it

... its not like rane, they are usually very helpful......i hope they reply to me soon.

On my old mixer I had a choice of gain settings on back (vestax pmc 08 ) so was easy to set desired receive gain on it....there is none on rane 68 and it looks like it wants a 0db or +4db level and the KP3 must only put out -10db.

On other units like pioneer efx 1000 it has choice of output level so im sure that would work..

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products/44 ... specs.html

I need the KP3 on my setup, so many of my tricks depend on it so, im thinking i may have to get the efx 1000 and chain em like this to get desired level back in(unless i can get a amp to go from -10db to 0db. )

68 send - kp3 in - kp out - efx1000 in - efx 1000 out - 68 recieve.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:19 am

After you hear back from Rane, you can try using the headphone output. Just be careful when setting the output volume and listen carefully for any clipping that indicates that you're overloading the input. Headphone amps can put out more power than inputs can handle, and you don't want to burn the effects return on your otherwise nice mixer.

Another option is to not use the KP3 as part of the effects loop but use it in-line on one source or on the main output. This isn't as flexible of course, but it bypasses the problem. Maybe the mixer has a soft setting for the FX return level? You've probably checked already, but I thought I'd mention it if you haven't.

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:12 am

yeh ill wait to hear back from rane first.

If there is no way a software/firmware update on the 68 can solve this issue the headphone out will be my only option(unless i can get a small amp in line with kp output). Cant believe they have no gain control on it

I dont want to use it on the master as i like to apply fx to only one track often and i cant use it direct on turntables as it only accepts line(unlike kp2) plus it is control records i use with serato.

Think I'm going to measure volume of whats coming out mixer to whats comin out kp to see how much a difference ther is, just for my own interest.

Many thanks for your help xmlguy

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:10 pm

Headphone out still aint got enough gain on it for use with 68.

I did some testing measuring volumes of sends from mixer vrs output of kp etc and keeping track of volumes on my Mackie mixin desk.

Basically the kp3 needs around 10-11db of gain to work with Rane 68. Im hoping rane can sort this with firmware/software but if I had to bet id bet that the pre-amps/input circuitry etc will be hardware and there will be nothing Rane can do, other than redesign it in the future(if they care about this).

So im left needing some device that can take a -10dbV input and boost it to 0dbV. So far I cant find any so if anyone know of one, please let me know.

Quote from wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
"The most common nominal level for consumer audio equipment is -10 dBV, .."

-10dBV is the most common so wonder why 68 cant cater for it....

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:37 pm

You've got a far more serious problem if the headphone output of the KP3 isn't enough to drive the effects return.

The headphone output should be many, many times more gain than 12dB of a line level. Headphones require audio power amps to drive the speakers, not as much as regular speakers, but much more than need to drive an input on a mixer. What other gear have you used to drive the effects return? There might be a switch on the effects send jack that cuts off the effect return unless something is plugged in. Are you using the effects sends on the mixer to connect to the KP3 line inputs? Are the mixer's effect return jacks balanced TRS or unbalanced TS? I think there's something else that's missing here.

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:27 pm

xmlguy wrote:You've got a far more serious problem if the headphone output of the KP3 isn't enough to drive the effects return.

The headphone output should be many, many times more gain than 12dB of a line level. Headphones require audio power amps to drive the speakers, not as much as regular speakers, but much more than need to drive an input on a mixer. What other gear have you used to drive the effects return? There might be a switch on the effects send jack that cuts off the effect return unless something is plugged in. Are you using the effects sends on the mixer to connect to the KP3 line inputs? Are the mixer's effect return jacks balanced TRS or unbalanced TS? I think there's something else that's missing here.

Your right, ther must be a problem with KP3 output amp/circuitry.

Hooked up my KP2 and it works no problem on its RCA's, how it should. Its weird because if i hook the KP3 to my Vestax pmc08 i can get it working on the -10db return switch setting, see this image which shows switches-

http://www.djdeals.co.uk/prod-downloads ... W-back.jpg

Is ther any way of setting levels on kp3 then or will this be a fault?? If so i wonder if korg would fix this for me, I've hardly used it but it will be out of its warranty.

btw 68 uses this-

FlexFX Return: Unbalanced 1/4" TS (tip-sleeve) phone jacks
FlexFX Send: Unbalanced 1/4" (tip-sleeve) TS phone jacks

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:48 pm

How are you generating the sound that the KP3 should be playing, and how do you know it's at the right level? When you listen with headphones in the headphone output, are you getting a nice loud signal? How high do you have to turn the headphone level to get it loud? I would test by using the KP3 built-in drum patterns and synth programs, using the resample function to loop them. If I have a good strong signal from the headphones, then I see no reason why the headphone output couldn't easily provide the signal needed for the mixer (and much more than it should need).

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:34 pm

The sound is sent from 68s send. All you do is punch in the fx button to send to kp3.

I know its correct level as the level is at 0db on mixer channel and on the kp3 the input gain knob only needs to be around 10 o'clock on input to show a nice green input.

Even with headphones at max it really isnt too loud(its around 10dB less than whats going in as ive checked on mackie mixing desk meters to see differences). Ill check with built in drum sounds etc also to see if they sound louder.

Plus the fact the KP2 outputs the same as whats going in no problem confirms the output on my kp3 is way to low. Its defo no where near the level of KP2(10db less in fact)...

For now ill just use kp2 and ive sent a support email to Korg. I also tried updating the firmware but no joy.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:22 pm

Ok, the problem could be the level that your Rane is putting out on the effects SEND is too low. That's why I suggested testing with the KP3 internal drum patterns and synth, which should be very loud in your headphones with the volume turned all the way up. Testing with the internal sounds eliminates any KP3 input problems from the scenario. It's also convenient to get a strong loop going with the RESAMPLE button. It's useful to test only one part of the signal chain at a time, whenever possible. The Effects Send on your mixer should not merely make the line input appear green, it should be able to go yellow or red as you turn up the input volume. It does not take a strong signal to make the KP3 input light green. If you can't get the input light to go yellow with the input volume, then there's a separate problem with either the KP3 input or the Rane FX send, with the FX send being more likely.

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:05 am

OK testing with internal sounds was a good test.

It is outputting a good strong signal when playing internal drums and synths so that show the output on kp3 is ok and also input on 68 is fine.

The problem is somewhere on the input side of kp3 after the initial signal in.There is defo no problem with what mixer is putting out. I can turn kp3 input gain up and easily get it showing orange then red on led. But when turned where is should be, 10 oclock and a solid green what comes through rest ok kp3 is far too quite.

If I turn kp3 input gain up more to try and get it matching internal synth level it clips/distorts sound(and you can see this on input led, solid red).

So the problem is after the initial input on KP3 but before output on kp3. Somewhere in the chain like where it applies this input to fx bus, its not applying enough of the input signal to the fx bus.

The kp2 working fine also confirms this.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:15 pm

See page 8 of the user manual to check the connection switch on the back to see if it is in Direct or Send position. The FX Depth knob controls how much of the effect is applied. Which effect are you testing and where are you pressing on the pad? You might be applying a heavy filter or other effect which is supposed to cut the level. You need to choose an effect and press on the right place on the pad where the filter is not being applied - to test the max output level at least.

s3kn0tr0n1c · Post by **s3kn0tr0n1c** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:43 pm

It doesn't matter what position its in, level is low in both.

however for this type of fx loop (insert) on Rane 68 you really should use direct setting.

And when I use direct, even with no fx applied and a dry sound it is way too low.

The fact that my kp2 works as it should confirms that there is some gain fault inside kp3 which is only affecting input(after initial led level)......i think ill try a mic input when i get home too, see how that behaves.....wish i had another kp3 to try too...

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:01 pm

Is the KP3 new or used? If you got it used, there's lots of DJs who mistreat their gear by pushing everything beyond clipping, sometimes frying input and output stages. They want it "louder" but don't understand how to get it louder - because they don't understand the whole signal path and gain stages. So they just turn all the knobs and faders up, even though the inputs are overloaded beyond red. There's only so much voltage/current that the poor little circuits can handle before they get smoked. I suppose it could be a manufacturing defect if it's new

, but defective DJs are a more common occurance.

The process you used to increase the level into green, so that it just occasionally hits orange, and never red, shows that you're doing the right thing to get the signal into the KP3. But something between the preamp and the KP3 A-D converter might be fried/defective. The Green/Orange LED proves that the KP3 is getting a good level, so something down the line appears to be a problem.

The high level from the internal drum patterns and synth proves that the DSP/Effects engine appears to be working just fine.

Thanks for sticking through this process. Hopefully it's been helpful to go through the steps of walking through the signal path on your KP3 to more specifically isolate the nature of the problem. I know that I learn a lot more about the gear when experiencing problems, since I'm forced to look at all the pieces of the puzzle in more detail.