how about a set of mastered samples.

jemkeys25 · Post by **jemkeys25** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:57 am

I've noticed over the years that the best sounds, the ones that sounded the best through any speaker system, were the ones that i sampled from albums. now when an artist is finished recording thier album, and its just the way they want it, and it's bounced down to two track stereo its sent for the final step "MASTERING" this makes the recording air worthy, it gains the ability to sound good through any speaker system, were every sound sits in its proper place in a mix. Now from what i understand,not everyone can be a mastering egineer, that its a very skilled craft, so i propose that korg send some of its final samples to be mastered by a world class mastering egineer, and give the buyers of kronos a set of mastered sounds,kinda like we have a general midi set.

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:04 am

Interesting notion, but the mastering that takes place on a finished track is specifically tailored to that track. EQ, compression, brick wall limiting, multi-band limiting, sometimes aural exciting too, are all used on the final product (the 2-mix) not the individual sounds. So pre-mastering individual sounds without knowing what context they'll be used in kinda doesn't make sense. In short, you can't pre-master a track. You can only mix a track. Then it goes to mastering. Hope that makes sense.

jemkeys25 · Post by **jemkeys25** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:14 pm

then you master each sound for a specific band set up. did you ever notice when listening to the radio, regardless of song that say the bass drum always sits in that sonic spot where all bass drums sit, and the bass,regardless of type of bass, sits in the bass spot, and pushes the right frequencies, and so on and on, the old saying "make every sound louder than the other. you could taylor the sounds to fit into a specific band mix.
a three piece, a four piece, and so on.

with 12 GB of samples it would be nice to have a portion of those samples mastered by a proffessional mastering engineer.
it couldn't hurt,
and you can master individual sounds, I hear songs all the time that start out just drums ,or just guitar or piano, and those sounds have been mastered and hold thier sonic integrity through any speaker system.

Ajbbklyn · Post by **Ajbbklyn** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:28 pm

One of the main ideas behind a workstation is that you can take a relatively raw sound source and tailor it (or mangle it) to your specific needs.

Why would you want a sound that's "pre-mastered" (a misnomer, actually - more accurate to say pre-equalized/compressed) to someone else's notion of how the source would/should optimally sound in a particular context? That would actually be more constraining than doing your own sound design - especially since we're talking about a board that has a full library of uncompressed samples.

I understand where you're coming from. It would be nice, in one sense, to have a library of "band-ready" sounds. But, I think that is something that is better left to the realm of the arranger keyboards - or to VSTi.

jemkeys25 · Post by **jemkeys25** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:22 pm

right, and you can still taylor the sounds the way you want, i'm only reffering to some of the sampled sounds which are,lets face it , just recordings of instruments over the range of the keyboard, so just like we have a general midi set, why not a mastered sample set, then we can have the best of both worlds.
I've done sequences that sounded great through a PA, but not so great plugged into the aux input of my stereo.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:53 pm

You can apply mastering with the total effects slot, and there are some effects which are fine for this.

The problem with 'mastered' samples is that they do not sound realistic. A piano playing a chord going through a compressor behaves differently to if each note were an already compressed sample, for example. Just like guitar chords distort differently to individual notes, so you can't really sample individual guitars.

Keyboards now and in the future will approach more realism by not having samples which are already processed, and applying processing using built in effects instead. Older keyboards did have heavily processed samples because effects processing on-board was much less available, as well as for assisting in the creation of consistent loop points, etc. So this really is the opposite direction that keyboards are going in, and for the better.

If you want to have a mastered sound, then you need to apply mastering yourself which suits your mix and arrangement. In Korg's latest workstations the total FX slot is ideal for this, and a master compressor or limiter will often provide a more consistent output level between combis or patches too.

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:57 am

jem,

I think you're misunderstanding what how the mastering process works. As I mentioned in my post, you mix a track and you master a mix. You can't pre-master a mix by using samples that are somehow pre-mastered in the way you're suggesting. Even if it were possible to pre-master, say, a piano sound, whatever mastering techniques were applied might result in a sound that's too dynamic for a pop thing, great for jazz, just "OK" for a classical piece and totally wrong for a country track.

Even sample-heavy tracks, like rap tracks which use lots of samples of already mastered records have to be mastered.

To make an analogy, asking for "pre-mastered" samples is like buying house paint at random without looking at the color on the label. When you get home and open the can, the color might be perfect, or it might be "kinda OK", or possibly the most ugly color you've ever seen.

HTH,

PS

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:31 pm

This is exactly the reason why I always want "raw" sounds, and NEVER processed ones.

I understand where the OP comes from, and how you (jemkeys25) would just like to have that compressed BIG sound ready for use, probably especially in electronica and hiphop or the like. But it wouldn't work, just because adding mastering can be done anytime, but getting heavy processing off of a sound afterwards and getting it rebuilt or changed in a convincing way is difficult up to impossible to achieve.

In my case you can add that I feel strong dislike and even contempt for many results of the well known "loudness wars" of the last two decades. I understand the value of compression and other processing for certain musical styles to a certain degree, but from some point onward it just sounds dreadful to me, and then I prefer any decent analog tape recording of the 70s over that.

jemkeys25 · Post by **jemkeys25** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:11 am

oh no, i disagree shwartz, any sound can be mastered weather its by itself or in a mix, if anyone can get proffesionally mastered results from an m3 or oasys or kronos, i'd like to hear it, and I want it to sound good through any speaker,even a clock radio.

again,I'm only asking for a mastered sample set, a small potion of the 12GB of samples.

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:05 am

jemkeys25 wrote:oh no, i disagree shwartz, any sound can be mastered weather its by itself or in a mix, if anyone can get proffesionally mastered results from an m3 or oasys or kronos, i'd like to hear it, and I want it to sound good through any speaker,even a clock radio.

again,I'm only asking for a mastered sample set, a small potion of the 12GB of samples.

And that's "Schwartz" btw.

All samples in any keyboard or plugin are in fact "mastered" to a certain degree, but not with the same aim as mastering a music track. Sample mastering includes such things as evening out levels between adjacent samples, sometimes some subtle EQ'ing to roll off rumble or enhance some high end. Those are all mastering techniques.

But OK, sure, let's take your idea and try and "pre-master" a snare so that it really stands out in the mix in a pop track. Will that same mastered snare work if that snare is to be used in a hip hop track or a rock track? Prolly not.

Still, that's all besides the point. You can't master an individual sound because it hasn't been used in a track yet. It's classic "which came first, the chicken or the egg" situation.

As far as getting a mastered sound out of an Oasys or M3 or Kronos... Stephen Kay, Jack Hotop, and Skippy have an uncanny talent for using the various mastering FX on their Combis to get a polished sound right out of the box. But even if you used only one of those Combi's in a track, and that track was going to be put on an album, it would STILL have to be mastered. So like I said, you can't master individual sounds. You can only master a mix.

I understand what you're going for, but it's just not possible. If you're looking for samples from any manufacturer -- not just Korg -- to give you a polished sound out of the box that's perfect for every single track you ever create without needing a stitch of extra work to make it radio-ready, then you're going to be waiting for them for a very long time.

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:26 am

I agree with Peter, or let me say "I echo" what he is saying, because there's nothing to agree or disagree on. Mastering is applied to a finished mix. Period. There's really no discussion.

Let's just, for a moment, go along with your way of looking at it - say you "mastered" a bunch of sounds individually. Once you put them together with each other, they would require different mastering as part of a full mix. Once you lay a lead vocal on top of them, they would require re-mastering in order to have the vocal be part of the mastering process and sit in the mix properly. And so on.

Mastering is applied as a final step to the whole mix. That's the definition of Mastering.

Sina172 · Post by **Sina172** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:29 am

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:42 am

Sina172 wrote:Mastering affects all the tracks as a whole. Mixing affects individual tracks.

Correct.

The process is the same between the two. Where they are applied is how they diffrentiate.

Yes and no. Both mix engineers and mastering engineers use EQ, compression, limiting, and so on. But while their tools might be the same in name, the way they're used can't really be compared. And mastering engineers often use various kinds of plugins and outboard gear that a mix engineer would never consider using, and vice versa.

The process of mixing and mastering are not the same. Mixing is mixing, mastering is mastering. As I said, you mix a track, you master a mix.

"Period" (attributed to Stephen Kay, legendary ender of arguments that need not be had).

jemkeys25 · Post by **jemkeys25** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:02 pm

ok,so can you get proffessionally mastered results from an m3 or oasys or a kronos, or would I need external help?

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:54 pm

jemkeys25 wrote:ok,so can you get proffessionally mastered results from an m3 or oasys or a kronos, or would I need external help?

You can very well, but you may get even better results with an external hardware or software mastering suite.

Most of the problem is not in the tools available, but knowing how to set them properly.