Kronos' Arpeggiator

[AK-Jake]

I've never had access to KARMA, only dabbled with it in the stores.

I haven't heard a peep about Kronos' arpeggiator, outside of KARMA (and I assume they are one and the same). My Triton Extreme had something like 128 set arpeggiator patterns that weren't editable, nor could you create your own. The Roland Fantom G is the same way, however, the Yamaha Motif XF allows you to go in and program your own arps from scratch (or use one of its more than 7000 preset arp patterns). Then again, word on the street is that Yamaha somehow "patented" programmable arp technology, so no one else can put that in unless they pay Yamaha for the right to do so. My gut feeling is that KARMA is Korg's "way around" this.

Anyone heard anything on this matter? I'm getting a Kronos regardless, so this isn't a deal killer for me, just trying to understand better.

Thanks.

[Synthoid]

word on the street is that Yamaha somehow "patented" programmable arp technology, so no one else can put that in unless they pay Yamaha for the right to do so.

Never heard that before.

[ozy]

Yamaha somehow "patented" programmable arp technology

hope they don't "patent"

transpose
black keys
or
scales

as well.

[X-Trade]

My Triton Extreme had something like 128 set arpeggiator patterns that weren't editable, nor could you create your own.

The Triton Extreme (and all Tritons, save for the KARMA workstation) have a completely programmable arpeggiator. You create arp patterns in an editor page in Global mode (because arpeggiator patterns, like drum kits, are a resource accessible to any program, combi, or song).

KARMA is a bit different. There is no functionality to program your own patterns from scratch, in the keyboard itself - although Stephen Kay has mentioned a number of times that he'd be quite happy for the basic functionality (to convert an RPPR pattern to a basic KARMA GE) to be included, but Korg haven't expressed any interest.

KARMA is one of those strange things, you can get a vast variety of very musical expressions and riffs out of it, but the GEs themselves aren't 'fixed' patterns, although when just browsing through them it can seem that way. Once you have them loaded up you realise each one is in fact a kind of 'computer program' or perhaps its own little MIDI generating synth - almost. Each one has a set of parameters and tweaking those parameters you can completely change the resulting notes in many cases. It is a very flexible MIDI manipulation and generation system, basically.
There are GEs for simple things like up, down, up/down, up/down 2 octave, etc. But even these have tweakable parameters similar to other arpeggiator like gate time, pitch bending, swing, and other parameters more uncommon for arpeggiators.

It is great if you're not sure what you're after or you are composing on a deadline e.g. for a scoring project, or if you need additional articulation and such things - like guitar strumming, harmonies, etc.
What it is not great for just when you're working on the keyboard itself is if you're after a specific pattern or riff. In sequence mode there are other options like just recording or step-entering your pattern, or using RPPR to create your 'patterns', and assign and transpose them across the keyboard, paste them to tracks, etc.

With the software (additional, from KarmaLabs), you can convert simple MIDI clips/files into KARMA GEs, as well as playing with the thousands of other parameters to tell a KARMA GE what to do with the incoming MIDI data.

[danatkorg]

word on the street is that Yamaha somehow "patented" programmable arp technology, so no one else can put that in unless they pay Yamaha for the right to do so.

Never heard that before.

I've never heard that, either. Sounds like the "word on the street" should check its sources.

It's quite possible that Yamaha has patented some aspects of their arpeggiators; they have many patents. However, many instruments from different companies have programmable arpeggiators. The Korg KARMA-equipped synths include this via KARMA (though you need the KARMA software in order to program them); other Korg synths, such as the M50, have a programmable arpeggiator.

[dokido]

I use my programmable M50 arp to controll Karma of my M3. In that way I get a great variabilty. You cannot let the internal sequenser control karma in M3. I suppose its the same with kronos? But I wonder, AL-1 do have an arp, if it can control Karma? Well, I suppose its a question for Steve though.

[danatkorg]

I use my programmable M50 arp to controll Karma of my M3. In that way I get a great variabilty. You cannot let the internal sequenser control karma in M3. I suppose its the same with kronos? But I wonder, AL-1 do have an arp, if it can control Karma? Well, I suppose its a question for Steve though.

The AL-1 has a step sequencer (two, actually - one per-voice in the AL-1, and the other "common" step sequencer shared by all voices in the EXi Program), but it does not have an arpeggiator.

The PolysixEX has an arpeggiator. It is within the synth engine itself; it does not transmit MIDI or control other synth engines.

Best,

Dan

[dokido]

oh yes the polysix it was, ok, thanks anyway

[StephenKay]

I haven't heard a peep about Kronos' arpeggiator, outside of KARMA (and I assume they are one and the same). My Triton Extreme had something like 128 set arpeggiator patterns that weren't editable, nor could you create your own.

The Triton's arpeggiator was programmable. It's the same one that's now in the M50. You programmed the arps in the Global Mode, similar to editing a Drum Kit.

Then again, word on the street is that Yamaha somehow "patented" programmable arp technology, so no one else can put that in unless they pay Yamaha for the right to do so. My gut feeling is that KARMA is Korg's "way around" this.

Absolutely untrue.

You can't patent a concept (although that doesn't stop some from trying). You can only patent a specific way of doing something.

Yamaha has several patents related to arpeggiators; so do a number of other companies. They cover specific ways of doing certain things, and there are other ways of doing them, as other companies have arpeggiators.

As has been pointed out, you cannot create a user GE in the Kronos, M3, or OASYS. But you can create one in the optional KARMA software, and then store it in the keyboard, where it is then available as is any other GE. And it should be noted that the first 30 or so factory GEs are specifically created to do common arpeggiation patterns, and have thousands of variations inside each of them, if you just start using the 16 Real-Time Controls programmed into each GE. You can change the rhythmic resolution, the rhythm pattern, the velocity patterns, the range of the octaves, the up/down directions, whether the notes are scalic or based on exactly what you supply, the durations (gating), and a whole lot more.

I would like to add, in a future version of KARMA in the Korg keyboards, a way to turn a simple phrase recorded in the sequencer into a User GE. This would go a long way towards satisfying people who want some way to create their own pattern. The code exists in my software app; it would need to be integrated into the workstation by Korg engineers who would have to write the commands and dialogs to access the function. It's not that we haven't discussed it - we have - but so far, there has not been the time for them to devote resources to it.

Also, it's worth pointing out that there is a GE Type that was created specifically to emulate the programmable arp in the Triton and M50 - you program it in a very similar fashion, and if you are comfortable programming that, you could easily program a GE of that type in the KARMA Kronos Software. I intend to, at some point, publish a tutorial on how to program that kind of GE, as it will be of interest to many who have owned a Triton or M50. Some of the GEs in the factory voicing are actually imported Triton arps...

[gjvti]

Also, it's worth pointing out that there is a GE Type that was created specifically to emulate the programmable arp in the Triton and M50 - you program it in a very similar fashion, and if you are comfortable programming that, you could easily program a GE of that type in the KARMA Kronos Software. I intend to, at some point, publish a tutorial on how to program that kind of GE, as it will be of interest to many who have owned a Triton or M50. Some of the GEs in the factory voicing are actually imported Triton arps...

That is very interesting indeed. Which GE Type it is? Tutorial how to do that would be very helpful and I really would like to see if this process is as simple as programming TR arps.

[Synthoid]

I intend to, at some point, publish a tutorial on how to program that kind of GE, as it will be of interest to many who have owned a Triton or M50. Some of the GEs in the factory voicing are actually imported Triton arps...

Thanks Stephen. Many of us would really appreciate that!

[AK-Jake]

Absolutely awesome replies here, folks. Thanks!

Regarding Yamaha "patenting programmable arps," I can list 3 names (I won't) and provide actual emails (again, I won't) from ROLAND reps at various different levels within the company telling me that the reason the Fantom G doesn't have programmable arps is because "Yamaha patented that feature." When I asked them how something so rudimentary could be legally patented, they had no answer. Additionally, I've raised this point over at the Motifator.com forums and had people--Yamaha employees included--chirp in and talk about it, confirming it. That's where my "word on the street" cred is coming from. Sounds like there's some bad information being spread around, and I'm a bit more inclined to believe "the truth" from Korg rather than from Roland...let's face it, Roland's customer service is hardly top-notch, and Yamaha has had some serious internal communication issues in the past...even as recently as this past September in my case.

As far as the programmable arps in the Triton Extreme, SHWEET...I'll have to dig in to the global settings (and my users manual) to learn how to do this. Thanks for setting me straight!

To go back to Dan Phillips' original reply, I didn't quite understand his answer: the Kronos will have programmable KARMA arpeggiators provided you buy the software, but NOT programmable internal arps? Or will it be the same type of progammable arp that came from the Triton/M50 products PLUS KARMA?

Sorry to seem dense, just trying to understand this.

[X-Trade]

KARMA is the arpeggiator. And some of its 'GEs' (generated effects) include emulations of basic arpeggation and such as found on the triton.

There is a GE type which emulates the parameters of a Triton style programmable arp, although you'll only be able to program it fully in the software.

It all depends on your definition of 'program'. KARMA GEs have parameters which are exposed on the workstation - you can vary the rhythmic pattern and swing and all kind of things using the sliders - makes it great particularly for electronic improvisation and more general 'jamming' - and on the screen. But if you want to create your own GEs which go in depth of programming patterns and other things then you'll need to get the software. Including if you simply want to convert a straight pattern or riff into a GE.

You use the software for accessing the hundreds of parameters not available straight on the keyboard, to make your own GEs.

A GE is not just a straight pattern, it is more of a system in itself, a starting point. There are lots of places you can go just within the same GE.


Additionally, the polysix engine has a built in arpeggiator, just a simple one like on the original polysix.

[AK-Jake]

Got it. Thanks, bud.

[T7]

I would much rather have a traditional programable arpeggiator alongside KARMA, than mimic one using the 'build a ship in a bottle' approach with KARMA GEs or the KARMA PC software.