A Voicing Puzzle

[shap]

This isn't a good or bad thing; it's more a question I've been pondering.

Sit down at your favorite synth and pull up an Alto Sax patch. Play C0 (or the lowest 'C' on your keyboard). Note that you hear a sound. Whatever that sound is, it sure as heck didn't come from an Alto Sax. If it came from a physically modeled alto sax, the model has been stretched beyond reason.

Aside from the problem of bad labeling, I have no problem with this musically. It may not be an Alto Sax, but it's a perfectly good sound. Transposition gets awkward when the implemented note range of an instrument on the keyboard is restricted to the "real" instrument, and I recognize that as an issue.

My question is: when you selected "alto sax", were you actually looking for an alto sax, or were you looking for an approximation that carries across the full range of the keyboard? Do you want an approximation, or the real thing? Or perhaps both, suitably labeled? Would it be sufficient to have a "stretched" sample where transposition within reason was enabled, but not beyond reason?

It mostly matters because it goes to the question of sampling. I can sample an Alto Sax in high fidelity, but there's no way I can sample it playing C0.

What is it that people really want here?

[mm-pro]

On some days I would be looking for a replica of an alto sax. On another day, something in the sax family that sounds a bit off, maybe a bit creepy.

So, for me having more resources is better than less, even if it means pushing the boundaries of realism.

Regards,

MM

[billbaker]

To me the quandary can be summed up by the phrase "for certain values of..."

I'll audition an alto sax sound. One note? Cool. Nice, mellow, clean legato phrase within an octave. It sounds like an alto sax "for certain values of" alto sax.

The same sound is a completely useless cheese-fest in another musical context.

Rather than sampling individual saxes I think the approach would be better served by tone or volume based samples that would use the whole family and span the entire keyboard - "growl", "honk", "mellow", "sweet", "dark", etc.

Those are saxes I could find musical uses for right away, with less frustration and more synthesis possibilities.

BB

[Gribs]

This is very entertaining. I have come to the conclusion and to accept that I am as much or more interested in the technology, process and success or failure at making weird noises as I am in making music. It takes all kinds I suppose.

Sounding realistic has never been high on my list though. I would rather mangle the sounds into something else that, as was said sounds sorta like a sax but different.

I am pretty jazzed up about Mod-7. I went through the tutorials and am taking a look at a bunch of the factory patches. Being able to put a woodwind PCM through wave-shaping, ring mod, and FM is very cool. There are some factory flute patches that are like that, and I am trying to learn to get the same sort of effects. Some of the factory patches are just mind-boggling and I really wonder how the heck someone figured out how to get that particular sound (whichever one it is).

[ldascanio]

.....Do you want an approximation, or the real thing? Or perhaps both, suitably labeled? Would it be sufficient to have a "stretched" sample where transposition within reason was enabled, but not beyond reason?

It mostly matters because it goes to the question of sampling. I can sample an Alto Sax in high fidelity, but there's no way I can sample it playing C0.

What is it that people really want here?

I'm on the side of having sounds set for the whole range of keys and use it as needed. In the cases you try to sound as realistic as possible you cannot just choice an instrument. You also need to know a "little" about this instrument. It's important to know if you can play it monophonically or polyphonically, how many notes you can play at the same time (like not trying to play 7 notes in a classic guitar), articulations you can or cannot do with the real instrument, if glissando is possible or not, etc,etc.
Register of the real instrument (lower and higher notes playable) is also important if you like to sound real. In such cases just play the keys in the right range even if lower or higher keys will also play a sound.

Rgds.

[EXer]

My question is: when you selected "alto sax", were you actually looking for an alto sax, or were you looking for an approximation that carries across the full range of the keyboard?

I never select "alto sax" on a synth (nor "tenor sax", let alone "bari sax"). I have never heard a synth sounding like a real sax. Never. Not even the Yamaha VL generator played with a wind controller, and yet it's the closest to the real thing I have ever heard.

Btw, I'm a keyboard *and* sax player (Eb: alto and bari).
____

Interesting thread, nevertheless. Many kbd players are not aware of the tessitura (note range) of real acoustic instruments.

[Hanon_CTS]

Hi shap,
that's an excellent observation!
Whenever I select a sound approximation, I'm usually looking for it in a range similar to the real instrument, I wouldn't even notice if it just stopped playing before I ran out of keys on the keyboard.

I'm not sure that I really need a soprano tuba.

Cheers, Hanon