Sincere and honest request of Korg

Discussion relating to the Korg Oasys Workstation.

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Should personal credits be used for purchase of Kronos?

Yes
28
82%
No
4
12%
Not sure
2
6%
 
Total votes: 34

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cello
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Sincere and honest request of Korg

Post by cello »

Regulars here know that I have been highly critical of Korg regarding the way the Kronos was released and how I felt Korg treated its OASYS customers along with the effective devaluation of an OASYS investment courtesy of the Kronos release, etc - then of course there was 'that letter' which gave nothing to those who had spent most with Korg! I was not alone with these kind of views.

This morning I woke up to Korg's email, and to my own surprise, I was positively surprised by the gesture :)

Korg appear to have listened! I actually, genuinely felt Korg were at least trying to do something positive for O users.

Hence this poll. As the personal credits run out in March 2012 and are only worth what they're worth if you have a Kronos, please Korg, can we use these credits against the purchase of a Kronos?

I promise to buy a Kronos-61 should you say yes! :shock:

Thank you Korg - I do believe there is real effort here to show value to its OASYS customers.
Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,
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Kontrol49
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Post by Kontrol49 »

I agree that these rebates should be transferable towards the cost of a Purchase of a Kronos rather than libraries or at least given the option for either,I'm not a vast fan of buying extra sounds as I program a lot of my own sounds so never felt an urge to pay for such extra banks of sounds on any synth I've owned,and Having loads of synths anyway,never have run out of or needed to expand the amount of options I have for this anyway.

After getting my email about this for a few moments the prospect of purchasing a Kronos seemed a little more within reach if they were to offer a rebate on one,I had considered a 61 Key more when they were first announced as a possibility for gigging rather than take my Oasys out but soon went off the idea,based on principles over the handling of the Oasys,Although I've made my thoughts clear towards Korg and Kronos in the past would perhaps consider taking advantage of a rebate if it was allowed to be put towards the Purchase,I have even considered trading in my SV-1 and getting the 73 Key Kronos,and have also been given a trade in price by a dealer on this,having some rebate against it as well would certainly be a deal maker
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MartinHines
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Post by MartinHines »

Creating an addition copy of software (i.e. an additional license for sound libraries) doesn't take actual money from Korg, just potential revenue.

However, giving a rebate would cost Korg real money (Revenue collected they would have to refund).

I wouldn't count on Korg allowing you to get a discount on the Kronos itself.
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cello
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Post by cello »

MartinHines wrote:Creating an addition copy of software (i.e. an additional license for sound libraries) doesn't take actual money from Korg, just potential revenue.

However, giving a rebate would cost Korg real money (Revenue collected they would have to refund).

I wouldn't count on Korg allowing you to get a discount on the Kronos itself.
You have a point - to an extent.

Yes, reduction of the purchase price of the Kronos will hit Korg. But only to a point.

If I get a subsidised Kronos, I will pay full price for any future expansions (only Korg know how many are planned - they learned the hard way with the OASYS). The margin on hardware is low, compared to the margin on expansions (lower distribution costs, no hardware that can go faulty, very little support expenses, to name a few).

So, longer term, it is in Korg's interest to have as many Kronos boards out there.

I will buy the Kronos (only the 61 mind you) if Korg allows the credits to be used against it. If Korg doesn't then I won't get one and so I won't ever have any use in buying any expansions.

I hope that Korg extends the offer to the purchase of the Kronos. I will feel 1) that Korg does value the O investment made by us and then let down badly, and 2) the compromise of future full -margin revenue expansion sales against hardware investment will be understood by Korg.

Kind of like with Gillette or Wilkinson - you can buy the motorised unit very cheaply - but the re-fill blades cost more than the unit you need to shave! Ergo, the higher margin comes from the on-sales - not the unit itself.
Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,
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Post by MrT-Man »

Rather than a credit (which I appreciate as a gesture, but which does me no good since I don't plan on getting a Kronos) I would have much preferred they had made some of the new programs and/or combis available for the Oasys...
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Post by Mike Conway »

MartinHines wrote:I wouldn't count on Korg allowing you to get a discount on the Kronos itself.
Yeah, but I think that Korg would actually more money by allowing the credits to be used whichever way the user wanted - towards a Kronos purchase or towards libraries. More OASYS users would actually get the Kronos AND buy the sound libraries at full price!

Agreed, this probably won't happen, but I know in my case it would push me off the fence to get both.
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Post by chansensturm »

MrT-Man wrote:Rather than a credit (which I appreciate as a gesture, but which does me no good since I don't plan on getting a Kronos) I would have much preferred they had made some of the new programs and/or combis available for the Oasys...
Here here !

Oasys is a subset of Kronos, hence that subset of programs/combis can, and should, be made available to both platforms. There is absolutely no reason to restrict this other than Korg marketing trying to extract money out of Oasys users.

The trouble is, they are asking us to spend $3k for an upgraded motherboard with an underpowered atom processor sitting in a cheaper external case. This is so sad.
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Post by Michael Shipway »

Mike Conway wrote: More OASYS users would actually get the Kronos AND buy the sound libraries at full price!
My thoughts exactly.
If I could use the credit against a Kronos purchase, I would buy the 61 key version - to be more mobile than my Oasys 88. (Oh the back pain!). Without a doubt I would eventually buy the sound libraries at full price - after all, I couldn't resist the Oasys exi's at the time!
Mike.
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Post by hermanmusic »

MrT-Man wrote:Rather than a credit (which I appreciate as a gesture, but which does me no good since I don't plan on getting a Kronos) I would have much preferred they had made some of the new programs and/or combis available for the Oasys...
Ditto.
I honestly feel this is the least Korg should do.
These are rough economic times for many, and I'm sure Korg feels the impact.
However, Korg made promises they did not keep regarding the Oasys.
I personally feel even limited intermittent support would be much appreciated by most.

To force me to buy the Oasys II, err, I mean Kronos, to receive any discounts, whether for software add-ons or as bait to purchase the instrument itself, is mere marketing strategy.
This works nicely for Korg as they sell a new instrument.
I actually find it borderline insulting.
I would most certainly need to sell my Oasys to do it, and it just doesn't make sense (to me).
I'm reminded of the old cliché, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".

I guess it's human to be quicker to criticize than to praise. I love my Oasys and cannot imagine selling it. I used to love Korg.
Sorry, if this post sounds cold.
Actually, no I am not.

Happy Holidays to All!
David -
Kronos 2-88, 01/Wfd, Virus TI Desktop, Casio VZ-10M,
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Post by Hedegaard »

Well, I think the complaining O users should all feel a little guilty about Korg's latest offering.

Imagine a company is giving 'something' to past customers, already now 6 years old product.
I think Korg probably feel a little pressured about this and I think we should stop pestering them for more "free things".

They've given and excellent track record of updates and support over the years, not to mention unofficially Korg team that write in this forum, listening to eons of complaints and "do this, do that" e.t.c, whereas another company would have long given up on responding to such thick customers.

Ok, we didn't get our Exf which is the biggest blunder, but at least they TRY to offer something for Oasys users. And to think that Oasys users are the smallest group of Korg hardware buyers, it also shows just how far Korg wants to go to please a minority group.

So lets stop with all the Korg bashing, and instead try to offer them incentive and will to make even better products, for ALL of our common future.
We win new great products, Korg wins customers&money for them to continue to create things.
Its a win-win situation.

Nay sayers will just be left in the dust, eating rusty knobs&dials and whatnot from 20+ year old synths.......
.....Still waiting for the allusive, missing EXf for Oasys.....
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Post by chansensturm »

Hedegaard wrote:Well, I think the complaining O users should all feel a little guilty about Korg's latest offering.

Imagine a company is giving 'something' to past customers, already now 6 years old product.
I think Korg probably feel a little pressured about this and I think we should stop pestering them for more "free things".
Respectfully have to disagree.

The software architecture between Oasys and Kronos is shared. They took an open source Linux kernel (not certain if Kronos actually uses an updated linux kernel version from ours, but I would assume yes). They took their existing kernel extension (the driver where the realtime oasys/kronos synth engine lives), recompiled that source code to work on Atom processors, fixed timing-related issues related to working with a new processor, bolted on two new synth engines, fixed a few pending OS bugs, refreshed the UI and display driver for the new screen, tested ssd support (already in Linux), etc... I know this is a simplification, but this is the general idea.

The core point here is that the kernel extension, if you remove the two new kronos synth engines and any general OS related updates/fixes (which were minor), the architecture is the same (modulo CPU specific timing). It would not have taken very much effort to simply recompile these updated sw components, tested them on the old Oasys board, removed the new synth engines, and made this available to us.

I would have paid for this relatively small amount of development and testing work. To those of you who are software developers, all Oasys owners want is a few choice #ifdef's ;-)

Furthermore, Kronos patches could have been made compatible since many ROM samples are shared between the two units (of course Kronos adds new ROM samples, but there is a large set in common). A decision was made to create new patches and combis to refer to these new ROM sample memory locations **eventhough these common samples are the same**. This could have been trivial to fix either by sharing a ROM map, adding one layer of indirection when referencing samples, or, writing a small tool to "swizzle" Kronos patches to refer to Oasys sample locations. From an engineering perspective, this is trivial to do.

I don't think any engineer at Korg would have wanted to not do this extra work for the Oasys community. Korg engineering cares about its customers, these guys are in the trenches, totally passionate about what they are building, I am personally moved by all of the great support they have given us (these guys are just fantastic !) but...

....My guess is this was a marketing and business decision (you know, the backroom biz-dev guys who count beans and think of ways to sell more razor blades). So, even though the total number of software changes needed to ensure backward Kronos patch compatibility with Oasys are absolutely minimal, someone explicitly decided that investing that extra one-two months of effort to support an "early adopter" community, wasn't profitable. And you know, from a "counting beans" perspective, it probably isn't.

But it is the absolutely right thing to do given that a/ this product was marketed to us as an "open platform", b/ there is nothing particularly technically challenging about providing some level of backward compatibility, and c/ it is simply the "right" thing to do.

In the end, I suspect those engineering costs could easily be recouped by charging Oasys users for future OS updates. I think the model of charging for updates for older HW is completely reasonable and fair.

Please provide us with the small number of tools we need to keep this wonderful platform on life-support. For such minimal effort, you'd generate a great deal of good will. Who knows, you might even make money at it too.
Last edited by chansensturm on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by hermanmusic »

Yes, I would be most willing to pay for future OS updates. I saved my beans and paid for every synth expansion Korg offered and was glad to do so. I would be very happy to pay for OS updates as well. And yes, the mighty O its six years old now, but it wasn't when it was discontinued. in 2009. Not trying to stir the stick in the pot here, I just feel very passionate about this.

David -
Last edited by hermanmusic on Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hedegaard
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Post by Hedegaard »

chansensturm wrote:
Hedegaard wrote:Well, I think the complaining O users should all feel a little guilty about Korg's latest offering.

Imagine a company is giving 'something' to past customers, already now 6 years old product.
I think Korg probably feel a little pressured about this and I think we should stop pestering them for more "free things".
Respectfully have to disagree.

[whole lotta blah blah blah]
Dear chansensturm,
You have a right to disagree and thanks for doing so, then one can learn something new, from someones else opinion (but in this case not).
Thanks for your time taken to express your thoughts .......but you're completely wrong (afraid to point that out)

You see:
Linux kernel e.t.c its NEVER as easy as it looks like from the outside. Its easy for a user to point out for example SSD til HD e.t.c. but takes a whole lot more to get it to work.
I too would like to pay for an "upgrade" but I dont think its possible.
Korg isn't Apple or Microsoft, they simply don't have the power to do these things as we'd want.

Oasys being an "open system" simply means that its not hardware encoded signal processors on a chip, its all inside the software, meaning that it was possible to add new things to the Oasys system, without investing in new microchips, which is also what Korg did-offering a whole bunch of stuff through the years.

It dosent mean that its "open" for 3rd parties to add stuff, or open in the sense that the platform allows for constant upgrades over an extended time.

If by your reasoning it all comes down to "beans" i.e. money, then the math is even simpler, because had you paid just 1000USD for your Oasys, then you wouldn't have any gripes at all about the discontinuation of the product. But probably you sold ½ your soul to the devil to get it, therefore the discontinuation of the product feels emotionally more harsh.
And that emotional state of, shall we say, 'discomfort' leaves you trying to find the logic in what exactly happened here.
Your logic then turned to the "software" part of the problem. But software just simply isn't enough.

A Ford car from 1908 and a Ferrari from 2010 have many things in common, 4 wheels, an engine, petrol to drive the engine, but you can't take a Ferrari steering wheel, or windshields and put that on the Ford, they're simply not compatible. And if you re-design the windshields and steering wheels and 99.999% of the other parts to fit the Ford, then in actual fact, you have the Ferrari and not the Ford as the end result.
Same here, the external hardware would be different, i.e. the keys, the plastic black stuff that makes the Kronos fragile e.t.c is what most of the difference is.

No, dear sir, the BEST thing to do, would be in actual fact, to get an upgrade-kit in the form of:
new mainboard
new CPU + RAM
new SSD instead of HD
few other bits of s**t, like a converter board for the touchscreen.

Take out the old stuff from the Oasys and put these upgraded things into the Oasys hardware, so that you have a Kronos interior and an Oasys exterior.

THAT would save, time, money, research, development e.t.c from Korg AND we could get a 'Kroasys' or whatever other Greek/Roman mythological God.

Korg could ask a 20% markup price for this fictitious upgrade-kit and ensure that they get their money, yet again, from Oasys users, AND Oasys users would be happy, except for the few that would complain it wasn't given for free.

This makes more sense, than to yet again, rewrite a whole bunch of code to make it backwards compatible for age old hardware.
.....Still waiting for the allusive, missing EXf for Oasys.....
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DennyC
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Post by DennyC »

Hedegaard: "Take out the old stuff from the Oasys and put these upgraded things into the Oasys hardware, so that you have a Kronos interior and an Oasys exterior.

THAT would save, time, money, research, development e.t.c from Korg AND we could get a 'Kroasys' or whatever other Greek/Roman mythological God."

Very funny! That is one of the reasons why I did not want to get rid of my Oasys...build quality. I would love a "Kroasys". I like the idea of the new goodies in the Kronos and now the new sounds. And, since I was late to the dance with the Karo library for the O, I will be able to add some interesting stuff for the Kronos. I did scrimp and save in order to add the Kronos so I did not have to sacrifice my Oasys.

I voted no on applying the Korg credit towards the purchase of a Kronos. Why? Because I now already own one. But I could be persuaded into changing my position if Korg would allow the credit to be applied towards the purchase of a Jupiter 80. :)
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Post by Davidb »

Mike Conway wrote:
MartinHines wrote:I wouldn't count on Korg allowing you to get a discount on the Kronos itself.
Yeah, but I think that Korg would actually more money by allowing the credits to be used whichever way the user wanted - towards a Kronos purchase or towards libraries. More OASYS users would actually get the Kronos AND buy the sound libraries at full price!

... in my case it would push me off the fence to get both.
Indeed.
+1
Regards.
D.
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