Mechanical noise of SGX-1 via MIDI behaves strange

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:54 pm

When using an SGX-1 piano (i.e. I-A001) when played very software on a Kronos, you can hear a soft mechanical noise after releasing a note.

When you set it to +6 it is a bit better audible. And you can notice depending on the velocity of the note played, the mechanical noise changes in volume (for very soft notes it is inaudible, and for everything above very soft it has more or less the same volume.

Now connect a MIDI keyboard and set it to the same MIDI channel as Kronos and play on the external keyboard. Now the mechanical noise is for soft notes very audible (no change in mechanical noise for soft and hard notes it seems). I use an M50 as external keyboard. I know it's not the best keybed there is, but I think it is not related to the keybed, since the velocity is passed to the Kronos. Both velocity curves are set to 4 but I don't think it would matter to change.

Do I something wrong or is somkething strange going on here?

ak · Post by ak » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:47 pm

I think it has to do with the ADSR of the M50.

Try this:

Use an empty patch from the M50 and see if the problem goes away. Also, try the M50 seq and let us know if the problem goes away.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:52 pm

I'm not using any sound of the M50. The connections are:

MIDI cable from M50 MIDI Out to Kronos MIDI In
Two audio cables from Kronos Audio L/R Out to Mixer In (1 / 2)

I don't use a sequencer, I just play on the M50 and via MIDI the sound comes from the M50, but as described above, it behaves differently than played directly from the Kronos.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:55 pm

It might have something to do with note release velocity.
Is it possible the release velocity of the M50 is different than the Kronos?
(I don't have a sequencer attached so I cannot tell ... and to be honest; I never used the internal sequencer).

ak · Post by ak » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:59 pm

Got to SEQ:

Then play something, by default the first track is Enabled or use a template to Enable it.

Jon Lord · Post by **Jon Lord** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:00 am

michelkeijzers wrote:It might have something to do with note release velocity.
Is it possible the release velocity of the M50 is different than the Kronos?
(I don't have a sequencer attached so I cannot tell ... and to be honest; I never used the internal sequencer).

Afaik M50 (and most other keyboards) does not send out release velocity at all. And I read a reply from Dan (don't quote me on this one, can't find the thread it was so long time ago) that if no release velocity is recieved it is set to the "middle" automatically which should be 64, tho I somehow remember that the release velocity only goes to 64? so then it might be automatically set to 32?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:03 am

Yes I know both don't have release velocity and it is fixed; but I'm thinking now the Kronos and M50 have a different 'default' release velocity set. I'm trying to sequence it (succeedded in that), but now I have to find out how to see the note velocity/release velocities I played before.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:13 am

I can't see the release velocity in the Kronos sequencer, but it can be reproduced even without an external keyboard:

- Select I-A000 (Piano)
- Optional: Set mechanical noise harder to exerage the effect
- Sequence some very soft notes with this piano
- Listen while recording that you can hear the mechanical noise softly
- Now play the track back
- Listen that the mechanical noise is louder

ak · Post by ak » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:49 am

I forgot to add that the M50 does not send aftertouch and it might be the cause.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:51 am

It's not aftertouch, it's really a difference between playing and sequencing.

I can't imagine nobody heard this before (especially since there are a lot of 'real' pianists here).

Can somebody try the steps in my preevious post (I have a 61 version, but I don't think it matters)? Only takes a few minutes.

dfahrner · Post by **dfahrner** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:19 am

I was able to duplicate this on my K61, using a Yamaha MOX8 as an external controller. The parameter guide says the SGX-1 and EP-1 pianos feature "realistic performance nuances, including mechanical noise controlled by release velocity". If your external keyboard doesn't send note-off commands with release velocity (for example, like most Yamaha MIDI keyboards, the MOX8 sends note-on velocity 0 commands instead of note-off commands, so there's no release velocity) then the mechanical noise will be at a fixed (maximum?) volume, and your only option is to reduce the mechanical noise volume in PROGRAM Page P4: Main, under Components. And according to the MIDI Implementation Chart in the parameter guide, "[a note-off velocity of] 64 is always transmitted during sequencer playback", so release velocity doesn't seem to be recorded in sequences, and you'll have the same problem as with an external keyboard in sequence playback. I'll have to say that I hadn't even noticed this in the short time I've had my K61 (although I haven't played it at very high volumes); and maybe with a real piano, mechanical noise doesn't vary that much, anyway (it's been a long time since I played a good "real" piano) so simply turning down the volume of the mechanical noise component may be all you need to do...

df

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:09 pm

Thanks for trying ... and thanks for the clarification, especially about the sequencer recording note release velocity always being 64.

I really do not understand why when not using the sequencer (i.e. playing 'live') the note release velocity is (probably) equal to the note velocity and it differs in sequencer recordings. Maybe it is to have the same response with internal (Kronos) keyboard and external keyboards, but now there is a difference between playing live and recording.

It's only a small issue but Rich has once said in a video something about Korg is very detailed (as an example that the CX-3 rotor stop position can be defined). So it would be nice if this was a parameter of SGX-1, although it will be a very strange one. Or maybe it should be a sequencer parameter: Note release velocity with values 0: use 64 or 1: use note velocity as release velocity.

Andy Leary · Post by **Andy Leary** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:17 pm

when not using the sequencer (i.e. playing 'live') the note release velocity is (probably) equal to the note velocity

The release velocity and the key down velocity are distinct and different. You can play with a very quick attack, but a slow release. Or you can play with a very slow attack, but a fast release. You'll be able to hear the difference in the level of the mechanical noise at note off regardless of the key down velocity. I agree that in typical playing, they are likely to be close to each other. A place where they are often quite different is playing the last chord of a song like a ballad. You may land on the note f or mf, but then release it very slowly.

In the sequencer, you suggested to use a fixed value of 64, OR, use the key down velocity in place of release velocity. We tried both of those and chose the first way. The best solution is to record the release velocity played and use that. I can make a feature request for this.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:28 pm

Andy Leary wrote:
when not using the sequencer (i.e. playing 'live') the note release velocity is (probably) equal to the note velocity
The release velocity and the key down velocity are distinct and different. You can play with a very quick attack, but a slow release. Or you can play with a very slow attack, but a fast release. You'll be able to hear the difference in the level of the mechanical noise at note off regardless of the key down velocity. I agree that in typical playing, they are likely to be close to each other. A place where they are often quite different is playing the last chord of a song like a ballad. You may land on the note f or mf, but then release it very slowly.

In the sequencer, you suggested to use a fixed value of 64, OR, use the key down velocity in place of release velocity. We tried both of those and chose the first way. The best solution is to record the release velocity played and use that. I can make a feature request for this.

Hello Andy,

Thanks for replying. I know the difference between key down velocity and release velocity. I'm not fully understanding your last paragraph because I cannot record release velocity (at least I cannot see the values in the Kronos sequencer) and don't have a PC sequencer.

However, what is strange is that if you play 'live' the mechanical noise sounds different than after playing back on the Kronos sequencer. This means the release velocity (or another) parameter that is used for mechanical noise is either not recorded or not used or used differently when being played back via the sequencer.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:17 pm

michelkeijzers wrote:However, what is strange is that if you play 'live' the mechanical noise sounds different than after playing back on the Kronos sequencer. This means the release velocity (or another) parameter that is used for mechanical noise is either not recorded or not used or used differently when being played back via the sequencer.

The KRONOS sequencer does not record release velocity (aka note off velocity). This is noted in the MIDI Implementation Chart at the back of the Operation Guide. As Andy referred to above, we understand that it would be good to have this capability.

Best regards,

Dan