Styles

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:57 pm

Hi everyone,
I m new to the site, recently purchased my extreme. Would appreciate some basic advise etc.
I started learning Keyboard from scratch, few months ago. On a Yamaha PSR3000 which I will get rid off.
Question :
1 will i be able to create styles as in Yamaha ( preset ) styles ?
2 I have some styles for PSR3000 Yamaha, can I possibly use them on
the extreme.
Thanks everyone.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:03 am

Hello Azi, not to discourage you but the PSR and the Extreme have NOTHING
in common at all except that they both make noise/sound, everything else
is totally different, commands, controls, use, parameters, engine, market,
hardware material, fx, construction...so the basic answer would be NO to everything.
But never the less it is zillions of miles ahead of any PSR as a machine.

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:53 am

hi,
thanks for posting. ..BUMMER....why no. Cant it ( eventually ) give me styles or drum beats that i can play along with ?
With the psr I can have a style playing, and I can play my chords and sing along.
Will I be able to do that with the extreme. If not then what is the main reason ppl use this keyboard for. Thanks for feedback, much appreciated.

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:42 am

Azi,

My take... you'll have no trouble with the beat-backing - you can either use the drum arps (all selectable) or use the sequencer to download entire songs or just patterns (GM drum kits are in ROM).

However, there is no 2-finger chord recognition or full accompaniment; (my opinion) the Triton series' arp is meant more for playing with others than it is an excuse not to.

SO, Basari is right to say that there are no "PSR styles" per se. The drums and melodic arp patterns just sort of chug along in 2 or 4 measure blocks. You won't get the breaks, fills, intros or endings you might be used to. If that's what you want you have the wrong keyboard. But it's kind of like the difference between an H3 and a mil-spec Hummer -- "better" being dependent on whether you want to pick up girls or invade a neighboring country.

This is not to say you can't do some really cools stuff with either board, cuz you can. Personally, I think the TrEX is a superior machine - especially if you can really play and aren't dependent on the machine doing most of the work.

In the end a lot depends on how well you mix and match the dual arps and what you want... in this case drums + "?" --- bass, synth arpeggio, strings, another drum pattern.

The drum arps are weighted very heavily to the pop/hip hop end of the spectrum and are almost entirely 4/4 (some variety provided by swing % to make 12/8) so there's not the full spectrum of every imaginable style and time signature. But what there is is first class.

Straight out of the box, the TrEX is a great treat to play -- and with a bit of work it becomes even better.

BB

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:44 am

Actually, Basari is wrong in this case. Styles are merely midi files in a special format that has separate sections for the various arranger parts, such as intros, mains, fills, and endings. In other words, it's still just an electronic form of a specialized kind of sheet music. All midi music can be translated with a bit of effort and skill, with better results depending on how you learn to make good substitutions for each difference. The PSR3000 also shares a very important trait with Korg, Roland and other gear - which is that it supports General MIDI that defines a base set of instrument and track definitions. While the instruments do have many differences, anyone with skill can translate the music between them, and I have done so on many occasions between my PSR-S900 and other gear.

There are special editors and software that you can find to edit and convert styles between various formats. You can also get very powerful arranger software like Band-in-a-Box and RealBand to improve the styles in the process.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:10 am

xmlguy wrote:Actually, Basari is wrong in this case.

I would like to know why i am wrong when everything i said is actually based
on facts and not my ownliking and opinions. What is a Style i probably know
better then you, the guy simply asked CAN I DO THIS? and i said NO!
Cuz no he cant...lets not confuse them, Azi, as i said, simple answer to you
is NO to everything, more complicated is you can have some Arps but thats
not what you are looking for in your original question.
XML, Band in Box and other stuff you mentioned has no place in this Topic
since we are not discussing Arrangers in here but Workstations.
Azy, the main use of this synth is as a Workstation, to be used with other
Instruments or in Studio work.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:40 am

BasariStudios wrote:
xmlguy wrote:Actually, Basari is wrong in this case.
I would like to know why i am wrong when everything i said is actually based
on facts and not my ownliking and opinions. What is a Style i probably know
better then you, the guy simply asked CAN I DO THIS? and i said NO!
Cuz no he cant...lets not confuse them, Azi, as i said, simple answer to you
is NO to everything, more complicated is you can have some Arps but thats
not what you are looking for in your original question.
XML, Band in Box and other stuff you mentioned has no place in this Topic
since we are not discussing Arrangers in here but Workstations.
Azy, the main use of this synth is as a Workstation, to be used with other
Instruments or in Studio work.

You are wrong for several reasons. First, I have done such conversions personally, so I know that it's possible to do, just in a different manner than you are assuming. Second is that you're assuming that other possibilities don't exist because you have eliminated them from consideration, but that doesn't make them disappear. Band-in-a-box is ARRANGER software and it can control any midi hardware, and more importantly, it can be used to add arranger capability to any keyboard that doesn't have arranger features built-in, and many thousands of musicians use it to do exactly that. So, get over the fact that you can't always be right, and if you really want to get into a debate on this, prepared to be shown how wrong you are in many other respects.

Another prime example of external arranger control of Tritons is the Karma Triton software, which is far more sophisticated than merely typical arranger capabilities, but that is a superset of the same basic principle: external control of arrangments on gear that wasn't designed with those features built-in.

It's very simple to prove that I'm right in this case. All the original poster needs to do is hook a midi cable from his PSR3000 midi out port to the midi in port of the TrEx, then choose a style on the PSR and start up some of the arranger parts and listen to what the TrEx produces in Multi mode. Trust me, what comes out of the TrEx will sound like music. You are simply assuming that he meant using ONLY the TrEx, while I'm assuming that the arranger features he wants can be kept with external arranger control, which is what BIAB and KARMA Triton do.

In fact, this is why I usually recommend buying workstations instead of arranger keyboards, since better arranger software can be purchased than what's built into the arranger keyboards, and you don't need to lose any of the workstation features if you buy a workstation and handle the arranger features externally. Getting KARMA for the TrEx is merely an example of this scenario.

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 am

Hi, Have I opened a can of worms here on what the extreme can and cant do. LOL. thanks a lot for your inputs.I'm sure down the track I will discover what I'm in for.
Actually I don't use intros and endings on the psr and neither do i use the chord assist. Which I think are gismos.
My question is can we create styles like the preset ones in psr as a backing to play along with ?
And finally, I am not into studio stuff. I may play for a band or solo ( that's where I will need the styles )
I was a intermediate guitar player, I find keyboard has more to offer.

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:59 am

It's very simple to prove that I'm right in this case. All the original poster needs to do is hook a midi cable from his PSR3000 midi out port to the midi in port of the TrEx, then choose a style on the PSR and start up some of the arranger parts and listen to what the TrEx produces in Multi mode. Trust me, what comes out of the TrEx will sound like music. You are simply assuming that he meant using ONLY the TrEx, while I'm assuming that the arranger features he wants can be kept with external arranger control, which is what BIAB and KARMA Triton do.

WOW!!! xmlguy
Can I really do that ?? that alone would be awsum.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:03 am

No Azi, no worries, its a good topic but XML doesnt consider one thing on here.
The OP as we can clearly see doesnt even know what a Keyboard is, the
difference between arranger and workstation, what is a style and what is
arp, what is midi and what is karma ge e tc...so lets make his life easier
instead of scaring him, he has to start from the roots, foundation, not the
roof. All you've said i know already and lots more, i deal with KARMA software
and style conversion on a daily basis (thats how i make my living) but my
whole point is that he has to start somewhere at the basics. And lets repeat:
Azi, no, the Triton itself cannot do like the PSR or vice versa, they are 2
completely different machines. A style can be converted but not to Triton,
to PA and others...a Style can be used with OMB, Live Styler and other
software with a Triton connected to it but it wont be same as on a PSR,
from a Style a midi file can be creadted, from a midi file a style can be
converted, from a midi file karma ge can be made and the opposite and
many other combinations...when you come to that point to ask that kind
of questions then i will gladly help you but now you asked a simple question
of if the Triton can do what PSR can and the answer is again no.
Extreme is a way more powerfull mashine then the PSR, 100s of time but
for other kinds of use, not for Style Playing.
There is one solution for that, not complete but close...if you buy Karma
Software for Triton from KARMA-LAB and then create your own GEs or buy
them but i dont think you wanna go down that road...for the next year
or so...once you learn the Extreme then you are set to go.
Also XML, if you read OPs original post carefully he wants to get rid of PSR3000 so
there is no way in hell of him connecting the to one to another.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:08 am

Azi wrote:WOW!!! xmlguy
Can I really do that ?? that alone would be awsum.

Yes you can, you need to keep your PSR3000 too and they have to be
connected. It will take a lot of work but you can get good results in few
months of tweaking and finishing the Styles in Extreme's Combi Mode.
You can play on one or the other, interchange between them, you can
solo on one or the other while the PSR drives Sounds from Extreme e tc...
Its fun but it will require a lot of work and knowledge...with time you will
get there, if i was you, personally i wont get rid of the 3000, it will compliment
the Extreme nicely, especially if you drive Styles on Yammy and solo on Ex.

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:09 am

sorry the first paragraph was quote from XMLGUY
I am very excited with the Extreme. Thank you good people.

Azi · Post by **Azi** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:20 am

Thanks Nedim, Great !! I was having second thoughts on parting with the PSR3000.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:03 am

BasariStudios wrote:Also XML, if you read OPs original post carefully he wants to get rid of PSR3000 so there is no way in hell of him connecting the to one to another.

I did read his post carefully, which is how I knew he had a PSR3000 currently that he could use to prove my case. Yes, I knew that he was planning to get rid of the PSR3000, but hadn't yet, which is why my reading comprehension is apparently better than yours. Nedim, you need some help with English, like to understand that when he says "On a Yamaha PSR3000 which I will get rid off" it means that he hasn't yet gotten rid of it and still has it. So it's obvious that he CAN hook up his PSR3000 to the TrEx, since he has them both, at the moment. Maybe you can get some lessons to improve your English.

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:23 am

Azi wrote:sorry the first paragraph was quote from XMLGUY
I am very excited with the Extreme. Thank you good people.

You really should take a look at Band-in-a-Box, RealBand, and Karma Triton, since they all produce far more realistic backing accompaniment than what's possible with the PSR3000, and they give you much greater control over the parts in the tracks. I have no association with the companies who make these products, except as a customer and professional user of them.