Thinking of M50

dimitra · Post by **dimitra** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:46 am

Hi guys,
I'm just planning to upgrade from my existing arranger/portable keyboards to something a bit more pro-sounding. I've been played keyboards for the last 18 years, and I think it's time I get something nice, to inspire me to make better music. I am mostly into playing "one man band" kind of performances for family & friends, but I also record some compositions on my simple home studio (M-audio fast track + Pro Tools). My first keyboards was a Yamaha PSR, which was very good for these one-man-band performances, but lacked good sounds and had plasticy keys. My second keyboard is a Roland E09 arranger, and that has excellent sounds IMHO, and reasonably good semi-weighted keys, but is not very intuitive for performances (for e.g. you cannot mute the drum track but play the other parts of the style arranger).
I started looking around in youtube, researching for what to buy next, and it seems like the Korg M50 would be a good upgrade. I think it's a wonderful value for money, and the only other keyboard coming close is Roland GW8. However I have a few queries, which I hope this forum would help answering...

1) I heard that Korg excels in synthesizer sounds, but not natural sounds (pianos, guitars, etc). I had briefly used a Korg Trinity a long time back, and unfortunately dont remember if the natural sounds were good or not. Does anyone feel that Korg's piano's are not as well sampled as say, Roland's?

2) I am used to the Arranger "styles" where a repetitive drum, bass and rhythm pattern is controlled by left hand chords. I guess workstations are not supposed to have these, but is the "Combi" mode on M50 something similar to this? Can I use the Combi mode easily for my live performances? Or am I wrong in looking at a Workstation, and should stick to Arrangers?

3) When I pluging the USB to my laptop, would it show up as a MIDI controller on Pro Tools? I use Pro Tools Essential, which is the pared down version.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:38 am

[quote="dimitra"]Hi guys,
2) I am used to the Arranger "styles" where a repetitive drum, bass and rhythm pattern is controlled by left hand chords. I guess workstations are not supposed to have these, but is the "Combi" mode on M50 something similar to this? Can I use the Combi mode easily for my live performances? Or am I wrong in looking at a Workstation, and should stick to Arrangers?

quote]If you use the KM50 software available through karma labs you get your arranger functions back but much better. Also as far as drum tracks or bass lines go they can also be changed as with an arranger directly from the touch screen. I actually find the touch screen to be easier in fact. you can also place th combi into the sequencer and then insert drum or bass phrases or whatever you like measure by measure or even note by note if you wish.

Yatrix · Post by **Yatrix** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:37 pm

dimitra
KM50 is very powerfull synthesizer, but after your experience with arrangers you will be disappointed with it's functionallity in respect on both making arrangements for your songs and playing SMF files as backing tracks. Arps and drums patterns in KM50 are not so flexible to switch quckly during gig in the order needed and SMF files would not always play "as is" and will reqire certain make up.
Have no Karma software to advice here, but anyway - that is separate software and require PC, additional cabels, setting and care to work.
Would recommend you to think on Roland BK-5 arranger keyboard, which has very good references:
http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthrea ... Post345359.
http://roland-arranger.com/index.php?op ... n#msg10252
That will be more logical replacement for your prior gear.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:10 pm

This is a good example of what Karma and a simple laptop setup with just a USB connecting cable is capable of.. Mind you I am primarily a guitarist and this is recorded in one pass. Once you get the hang of this thing it is remarkably easy to make changes on the fly substituting new Generated effects which are like arps however much more rythmic and less boring. You have eight seperate scenes for each combi or program that can add drum variations and much more.. I love what the M50's sequencer can produce but the Karma is almost like having magic at your fingertips.
Give it a listen and keep in mind this is very simple playing on my part , mostly changing scenes directly done from the M50's buttons that interact with the laptop for changing all sorts of paramaters. I am changing GE's/arps on the fly if you will very easily in fact.
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 84820&q=hi

Each combi and program can easily be changed along with instruments for an absolutely huge pallet of patterns , effects and sounds.
The whole set up is nothing more than the M50 , one USB cable and a laptop.
You can also record directly on to the same laptop while running the Karma software to build up ever increasingly complex arrangments.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:17 pm

With all due respect, AFAIK Karma does not replace arranger functions in a meaningful way. While it is very powerful and flexible in creating patterns based on the notes you play, and can do really nice infinite variations on them to avoid that "static" arranger feel, it does not do fill ins, does not do intros or endings, and is limited to four parts/instruments, drums included.

If the OP wants to keep arranger functions and get a much more "pro" board I'd recommend something like the Tyros or any other high end arranger over the M50.
That said, if he's happy to keep his older arranger and complement that with an M50, that'd retain his functionality yet open up a world of synthesis possibilities no arranger could match.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:55 am

Actually you can get five parts by using the dedicated drum track of the M50, I used it in one of the versions I recorded of the above song.
As far as fills go they are in the scenes and it all depends how you change them. No it is not like an ordinary arranger I agree, but thats exactly what makes Karma so much better IMO than an ordinary arranger, that and the fact that the arrangements are so much more interesting and variable.

dimitra · Post by **dimitra** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:53 am

Thank you all, for the replies. I'm a bit wiser now, on the differences between a workstation & arranger. It seems like a workstation is more difficult to "tame" than an arranger, but once you invest the time and get it tamed, it's way better than the arranger.

In fact, I realize what I don't like about my present E09 is the stiff predictability of the backing styles. For e.g. I love to play a song, and halfway through it, play a verse with the drum track muted, bass and other backing tracks playing.Then get the drum track back in the chorus part.. to get a bit of interesting variety in the performance.

@csteen: Thanks for suggesting BK5, I'd not heard of this one before. I'll check it out as well.

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:11 pm

I've just posted a cover on Youtube: except guitars and organ, anything else is the M50. (Drums, Upright Bass, Strings, Sax)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e57Btkin ... e=youtu.be

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:15 pm

Just as a note of caution, there is actually no Karma on board the M50, you would need the M3. What people are referring to here is separate software you could buy for your M50, but you would always need to hook it up to your computer in order to use it.

I have Karma on my Kronos and I used to own the original Karma workstation. While I think it's a very interesting and powerful tool, I really have to caution against the idea of using it to replace arranger functions. It does offer more variety to your patterns, but that also means it's very dependent on what you program it to do (which will require some hours of study) and it lacks a few basic features that make an arranger an arranger.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:49 pm

Yes , Karma right after installing is amazing, but it does require in depth study to master it if you ever truly could. But the thing about Karma is it NEVER EVER gets stale or boring. I find myself re-exploring original programs and combis over and over learning as I go. In many ways it is like a whole new class of instrument in that way but you can great music with it right at the start unlike learning a totally new instrument. I do not find it at all intimidating however yet it could be if I lost perspective. It is what it is and does an amazing job of that, however I do realize I am never perhaps going to totally master the beast. As you know, that is what makes it so special to me.
Most all of us here already have a computer and the only other thing you need for Karma is a usb cable to connect to the keyboard.
Speaking of computers, try to remember when you first started using one and try thinking of Karma like that situation. The more you put into learning computer jargon and skills the more you got out of it, this is much like learning karma. Still right after installing it, the fun begins and for me at least it only got better.
I believe my fondness for it has a lot to do with my playing abilities which are somewhat lacking and it gives me a chance to get much more benefit from my M50 than I would otherwize.
That being said the M50 is certainly powerful and entertaining all on it's own and I still find myself switching between the two ways of making music. They both have their place.
Now if I could afford a very expensive arranger I am sure I would feel somewhat differently about them but I got bored with the less expensive ones that I have used very quickly. I do find myself watching videos of the better ones in use from time to time and dreaming of owning a very nice one one day perhaps.

My advice would be to go somewhere that you can try several options and see what you prefer. An M3 is much the same as an M50 with karma software minus sampling and a touch screen or ribbon controller. They both use the same sound engine in their stock versions. It all depends as well on what you can afford. Good luck in your searching.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:52 pm

kikedeolivos wrote:I've just posted a cover on Youtube: except guitars and organ, anything else is the M50. (Drums, Upright Bass, Strings, Sax)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e57Btkin ... e=youtu.be

Stunningly beautiful work, thanks for sharing that with us.
Bravo///

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:34 pm

csteen wrote:
kikedeolivos wrote:I've just posted a cover on Youtube: except guitars and organ, anything else is the M50. (Drums, Upright Bass, Strings, Sax)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e57Btkin ... e=youtu.be
Stunningly beautiful work, thanks for sharing that with us.
Bravo///

Just bread and butter sounds.

Thank you.

tiggie_00 · Post by **tiggie_00** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:13 pm

I tried the M50 and I thought it sounded bad.. not impressed at all.. It just screemed cheap and the display had a few buttons pushed in.. I asked the sales person and he said it was the 4th unit and they all have had issues.. Get the M3 for a more solid design and quality.

csteen · Post by **csteen** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:56 pm

The M50 and M3 have the same sound engines .

dimitra · Post by **dimitra** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:16 am

Thanks everyone, once again.
I do have a laptop in my home studio, and I use Pro Tools for recording. But as I'm more of an amateur hobby musician, I dont think I can devote too much time in mastering Karma (it's not in my "karma"

).
What I'm looking for is something that - with minimal setup time - would motivate me to play music. I have been really losing my playing skills over the last 8 years, with my job taking up more time, leaving very little time or energy to play my music. Now, with a temporary lull in the career storm, I have some time to spare, and was thinking of a keyboard with good sounds, which I can just start improvised playing without spending too much time on setting things up. So I guess, an arranger would be better, and I'm leaning towards the Roland GW-8 now. I already like the Roland sounds - pianos are pretty nice, guitars acceptable, strings could be better but will do, saxophone is terrible but I dont use much wood-wind/brass in my music. Although Roland categorizes GW8 as a workstation, it seems more arranger-like to me. Probably a hybrid arranger-workstation keyboard, if such a category exists!

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