A question of compression

neotechtonics · Post by **neotechtonics** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:28 pm

I'm thinking about tightening up the sounds of my EMX's for live play.

I still have the stock tubes in both my EMX-sd and EMX-sm, would a good set of tubes partially negate the need for an external compressor? I know the right set of tubes will give my drums more punch without getting crunchy.

I still want to get some kind of end of line comp/limiter just to protect mixer/amp/speakers from unnexpected peaks but I still have to experiment with my Zoom R16 (which is last in my audio chain) to see what can be done there.
I've been recommended DBX and have been looking at the 166xs, 1046 and 1066 but might have a look around to see what older models are available second hand.

I know very little about compression as a whole and will be reading up as much as I can about compression techniques and parameters and probably experimenting with my line6 pedal and my R16's compression to see what works and what doesn't before I go ahead with any serious purchase decision. Side-chaining could prove very useful.
would I really need 4 channels or would I be able to get away with using mono drums from each EMX?

Please share your thoughts and ideas on compression with the EMX and what your setup is in terms of which parts you bus to the compressor etc if you are using an external compressor.

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:02 pm

Compression in general might be very useful. As it is influencing the velocity of a track's part it changes the groove of a beat significantly. A friend of mine loves recording and he showed me some drum lines before and after being compressed and it was a huge difference, really impressive. It is hard to explain because the difference is not very obvious at first sight, but if you listen to the beats a few times you will notice that the groove and tightness is totally different.

Nevertheless, I do not use any external compression since it is not about adding compression but to know if any compression is needed. Compression can also destory your beats, especially if you music depends on various elements, and not only a few instruments. It is a real science and it will cost you a lot of time, and all you will a achieve is only a litle difference.

I used to have an external compressor for side chaining for about 7 months. it bascially worked, but there are a few things which then got me to sell it.

1.) You compress everything. The EMX' 1/2 outputs deliver the signal which is compressed, outputs 3/4 trigger the compression. Your sound will be very limited, especially if you have a 4/4 beat. Then, everything which is not on the offbeat will be compressed, and you will not hear it. So melodies and stuff should not have any notes lying onbeat. Most people use side chaining an a few tracks, bass and kick usually, and the rest is untouched. The EMX does not allow that, due to the lack of outputs,

2.) The EMX drum samples sound very bad after being compressed. They sound way to long, so you have to adjust the EG time. This results in them to sound to short, no real bass is created, sucks.

3.) Alternative! As you will probably know, you can do Side Chain Compression on the EMX itself. It is not very cool but for simple bass pumping it is sufficent. Here is video explaining it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUtMwimU ... ture=g-upl

neotechtonics · Post by **neotechtonics** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:17 pm

I'm aware of the various ways to simulate side chain compression on the EMX, but I was thinking more about using it for ducking chord progressions from my microkorg (same could be done on the microkorg with LFO I suppose) or maybe some long layered pad samples on my SP404.

I have alot of testing to do. perhaps I can get away with the compressor models on my R16 or Pod-XT live.

just thought I'd open up a line of discussion on the subject with regards to the electribes. =)

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:27 pm

punpkomg wrote:I'm aware of the various ways to simulate side chain compression on the EMX, but I was thinking more about using it for ducking chord progressions from my microkorg (same could be done on the microkorg with LFO I suppose) or maybe some long layered pad samples on my SP404.

I have alot of testing to do. perhaps I can get away with the compressor models on my R16 or Pod-XT live.

just thought I'd open up a line of discussion on the subject with regards to the electribes. =)

Afaik the compressor also works with the audio in. So you may route the microkorg's outputs in the EMX' inputs, put the compression on both audio in and kick drum.

What is ducking chord progression? I know ducking (side chaining) and chord progression (i-iv-v and stuff), but what do they have to do with each other?

neotechtonics · Post by **neotechtonics** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:38 pm

Olivander12 wrote:Afaik the compressor also works with the audio in. So you may route the microkorg's outputs in the EMX' inputs, put the compression on both audio in and kick drum.

What is ducking chord progression? I know ducking (side chaining) and chord progression (i-iv-v and stuff), but what do they have to do with each other?

don't want to sacrifice a synth part for audio-in to pass thru the FX... or sacrifice an FX slot.

ducking/side-chaining and chord progressions don't really have anything to do with eachother haha but it's used alot in popular house/electro... and it's about time I started learning and using chords ;P

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:13 pm

punpkomg wrote:
Olivander12 wrote:Afaik the compressor also works with the audio in. So you may route the microkorg's outputs in the EMX' inputs, put the compression on both audio in and kick drum.

What is ducking chord progression? I know ducking (side chaining) and chord progression (i-iv-v and stuff), but what do they have to do with each other?
don't want to sacrifice a synth part for audio-in to pass thru the FX... or sacrifice an FX slot.

ducking/side-chaining and chord progressions don't really have anything to do with eachother haha but it's used alot in popular house/electro... and it's about time I started learning and using chords ;P

Yes I also avoid these things for too long

I am playing around with three parts of the same piano sound to hear how chords may sound on the EMX, but it is very frustrating...

thehighesttree · Post by **thehighesttree** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:00 pm

Replace those tubes! I don't even use the onboard compressor a whole lot these days since I got new ones in my ESX. If there's any way you can test em beforehand I suggest that. Mine are Philips Jan 5751 which means overall more punchy sound.

Cry UFO · Post by **Cry UFO** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Yup replace the tubes makes the biggest difference I swapped mine of for JJ Hi-Performance 12AX7 the lowend and mid range is it’s phenomenal.

I feel I’ve kinda gone through a similar process with my gear, I'd fully recommend sending all the drums out 3/4.

I pan the kick drum(s) hard left so output 3 is the kicks only and I can EQ that on the desk accordingly and all the other drums (snare,claps,Hhats etc) I pan hard right sending to output 4 and again EQ them.

The advantage (I think) with this is you can make the drums sound way better by EQ’n them separately on the desk. (then compress or side chain I guess depending on what kinda functions your desk/mixer has)

The other advantage is I can now run the tube gain super hot making the synths sound dope as cause they are not competing with the drums

anyway that’s my 2 cents

sauce · Post by **sauce** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:50 am

Hello, punpkomg.. I have a bit of advice in this area.

As you know I play a lot of shows with the Electribes, and not just with the ESX; I owned beta releases of both the ESX and EMX before they hit the shelves. While I have played hundreds of shows with the ESX, I have played a few dozen with the EMX as well. Compression is optimal when playing live, as the Electribes spit out transients and peaks that are hard to control otherwise.

Compression, for those reading who may not know, decreases the dynamic range of an audio signal. Every piece of music has loud and soft spots.. Sometimes the loud spots are loud enough to "clip", or distort from being too loud, but when the overall volume is decreased the soft, or quiet spots may not be loud enough to hear. A compressor will allow the volume to remain high enough for the softer portions to be heard, but when the music reaches a high enough volume (a "threshold"), the volume of the music is cut (compressed) to keep it from distorting.

All of the music on the radio or on CD's has been compressed and mastered, and sounds good when DJ's play them.. So, when someone steps up to the stage with hardware gear, but no compression, often the music sounds flat and boring compared to the music the DJ's are playing. Compression can help solve this dilemma!

Now.. The right tubes can and do introduce a level of compression, but not enough to be sufficient for live use. Your overall sound will be of higher quality but you will still need a nice compressor at the end of your signal path.

Most rack compressors will add some punch, but the rate at which the compression happens (attack and release), and sounds the best, is slightly different for different instruments, which all are present at different frequencies on the EQ band. What I mean is that the Kick Drum needs slightly different compression settings than the synths in order to sound good. A way to get around this is to us a multi-band compressor, which compresses the lows separately, the mids separately, and the highs separately. Each band (lows, mids, highs) can then be adjusted for maximum punch, and will get you closest to the "CD-quality" or "radio-quality" sound that will make your highs crisp and your bass punchy, just like the tracks that the DJ's are spinning right before and right after you!

Ok.. Multiband compression is generally expensive. The TC Electronic "Finalizer" pretty much set the standard and is around $1,000 or so, depending an which model you get. Luckily, though.. TC also makes a few economy compressors, with multiband settings, that are affordable and sound fantastic. I have used these and they are very, very usable:

The C400XL is about $200 on Ebay: http://www.tcelectronic.com/default.asp?id=12220

The C300 is about $140: http://www.tcelectronic.com/c300.asp

Anyway, I hope you find what you are looking for. GOod luck! =)

neotechtonics · Post by **neotechtonics** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:47 am

Thanks for the great advice Cry UFO and sauce,

@cry UFO: I've bussed my drums as you've said before panning kicks and deep percussion right and the rest left to 3/4 but if I did this with just my R16 that's all my 8 inputs used up (2 emxs) I like running my sampler on its own channel so I can record it separately... I'm gonna have to figure out to figure out the optimal setup. The R16 has EQ and compression and reverb but will all have to be tweaked within menus and the setup saved.

@sauce: I'll have a look at multiband compressors, might be the best answer without having to bus everything out separately, or atleast selectively bus. I've never played on a very loud system and I already know my first gig is going to be on a small club system. Definitely gonna try master all my tracks before hand on a loud system but still worried about unnexpected transients punching holes where they don't belong. Going to see what I can do with the compression on the Zoom R16 but I'm not expecting miracles. Hardware compressor is the way to go.

Thanks again

hazabikit · Post by **hazabikit** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:54 pm

Here's a description of how compression works from the Reaper forum:

"Inside the compressor is a little gremlin that turns down the volume. That's it. Really. HOW and WHEN he turns down the volume is determined by the instructions you give him with the compressor controls."
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... tcount=247

"Every control is interactive, and every control depends on what is going on in the signal."
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... tcount=248

neotechtonics · Post by **neotechtonics** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:30 am

@hazabikit: that gremlin analogy is actually pretty good

I've been reading through my Zoom R16 manual... it's got comp/limiter insert effect models which I'm gonna start trying out... and a "mastering" effect with a multiband compressor, HP filter and 3 band EQ as one patch. Will have to see if that effect can run live and isn't only for bouncing down recorded tracks to the master track. If it can then I can atleast improve my sound a bit and even things out until I decide whether or not to go ahead and get a dedicated hardware comp/limiter.

Olivander12 · Post by **Olivander12** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:11 pm

Can anybody show me the difference between a basic emx drum pattern uncompressed and with default tubes and the same pattern with new tubes and a multiband compressor? I am wondering if there is a striking difference.