Demand for PA Arrangers software for resources management

hotkey · Post by **hotkey** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:30 pm

I wanted to write this into the topic Need improvements for PA600,
but in the end all PA Arrangers would need this.

About functions and buttons, this is disscussable, some things Korg should applied and some could not.

But for I-Series it was some softwares to help organizing the keyboards, for PA models existing almost nothing.

Does KORG think about helping the users - buyers to make their keyboards better, to be more satisfyed with KORG keyboards and to be more sure to come back to KORG with the next buy?
If somebody knows the structures od the resource files, they are KORG engeeners, and it should not be so difficult to transfere to PC or MAC format, to make editable position of the style, sound or performance and also some settings of the sounds in the style and also pointer table for styles and sounds for the Song List.

I think lot of us users of these great arrangers would appreciate this KORG move closer to their customers.
This step stays big handicap for the users, but for sure KORG has the solution made so far that it would not be the full step needed to launch this software!

Regards

jac38 · Post by **jac38** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:55 pm

I want to add to this my thought about the program that they are providing us with. I'm now talking about "Style Works XT " and "Style User Bank Manager".

They are both presented a "freeware" and "free edition" but when opening them you will find out that you can't use them to their full capasity without first pay for them. When reading their definition for a freeware it reads:

* Freeware: You can use the software for free. You can distribute both shareware and freeware softwares, provided you don't alter the original package, and don't ask money for them.

And that is exactly what they do (as in ask money for it) if you want to fix your styles in both user banks and not just one. So either is it not a freeware or a free edition or they are breaking the law for what a freeware is. They are not cheap either, for both you have to pay 248 Euros

But the most important about this is that we don't get tools, just by buying the Pa600, that we can use to make adjustments that are are nesseary as we can't load and arrange what goes where directly in to the Pa600...

Timmby_09 · Post by **Timmby_09** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:24 am

Can anyone here tell me what is the best resource management tool for self storage software companies.

sridharar · Post by **sridharar** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:36 pm

If this leads to submitting a pettion to KORG for concerted and expedient action, you can count me in.

Br Sri

jac38 · Post by **jac38** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:57 pm

sridharar wrote:If this leads to submitting a pettion to KORG for concerted and expedient action, you can count me in.

Br Sri

I wrote this im mars this year and you are the only one responding, so I can't se any "action" coming out of this. I think it's a shame of Korg to treat those who already paid so much money for their instrument and not provide it with decent software, without skinning us even more. But so long they get away with it and there isn't angry owners who demands a change, no change will ever happend...

Jacob

sridharar · Post by **sridharar** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:48 am

Jacob,

Yes it is surprising and intriguing that the owners are putting up with the current situation. I have been struggling with numerous issues with PA600 - most of which seem to be related Software implementation and laptop/PC interfacing.

What is most troublesome to me is that even the most basic practices have not been followed in the implementation. Semantics of basic Concepts, their relationships, navigation paths etc are lack precision, consistency with no ability to control and/or pin down the simple behaviors.

Others Please speak up - and help get KORG's attention for correcting the situation.

Sri.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:20 am

I wrote this im mars this year and you are the only one responding, so I can't se any "action" coming out of this.

Don't ever expect any action from Korg from comments on these forums - Korg are NOT associated with these forums.

Maybe you are not getting many responses here because others are managing OK with on-board editing.

I can only speak for the PA3X but all the editing facilities are there for me - I would probably buy a PC editor if one was available but I don't need it currently.

There are others with some very specific and justified "PC editor" requirements and that may apply to you too.
I still can';t see why Korg should develop this software free of charge - I doubt that it would be a viable business venture considering the number of potential buyers and the cost of its development.

I am not arguing against a PC editor - just looking at the reality of trying to get Korg to produce one.

If you haven't done already, write to the Korg team directly in Italy.

Good luck

Pete

Giner · Post by **Giner** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:13 pm

Good points, Pete. Also, I think it's worth remembering that arranger players, generally speaking, tend to be content with just playing the instrument rather than delving in very deeply, even with Korgs being very strong in this regard. Therein lies the corporate philosophy regarding arrangers and synths.

Of arranger players, I think that those whose inclinations lead them to exploration are those likely to buy Korg, or Roland - possibly Ketron, unlike the out-of-the-box Yamaha followers, and, as has been suggested, the numbers are few enough that Korg sees little to no profit in introducing any editing software. Unfortunate for the deep delvers, but true I'm afraid.

sridharar · Post by **sridharar** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:35 pm

Happy to see more replies now.

It beats me that in this darn age of "Delight the Customer" mantra, a company would remain indifferent to the needs and suggestions of Customers -- especially ones who take the time to speak up.

It is right down dumb and despicable to make anyone do laborious work unnecessarily in any information processing context - when software can be used and created to make things easier.

We are not asking KORG to create and offer free software, but enable the development of those by interested users and community for themselves - by sharing more information and becoming more "open". This should in no way conflict their business interests of keeping their "jewels" protected.

If someone has a point contact in Korg to whom I can write to speak with I would really appreciate it.

Thanks Sri.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:35 am

It beats me that in this darn age of "Delight the Customer" mantra, a company would remain indifferent to the needs and suggestions of Customers -- especially ones who take the time to speak up.

Just be sure they are speaking up to Korg.

We are not asking KORG to create and offer free software, but enable the development of those by interested users and community for themselves - by sharing more information and becoming more "open". This should in no way conflict their business interests of keeping their "jewels" protected.

That would be very difficult - releasing OS design would be necessary - I can't see any company doing that. Also if a 3rd party were to develop such a product by some smart hex analysis of the OS etc then they would be left with the dilemma of coping with OS updates let alone the costs of doing it all and risk of return.

What exactly do you find that is "laboriousl" and "unnecessary" work on the PA?
Sam (assyrianpianist) came up with some very reasonable and specific reasons relating to his requirements.

Re Korg point of contact:-

KORG ITALY S.p.A.
Via Cagiata, 85
60027 Osimo (AN)
ITALY

Cheers

Pete

siebenhirter · Post by **siebenhirter** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:13 pm

karmathanever wrote: What exactly do you find that is "laboriousl" and "unnecessary" work on the PA?

Hello,
finding the answer at first lines of this thread

hotkey wrote: some softwares to help organizing the keyboards (for PA models existing almost nothing)

hotkey · Post by **hotkey** » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:07 pm

Hello,

thank you very much vor replays and debate!

From my side of view some program to collect all information from styles, sounds, performances pads, and put this information into Exel (word, pdf, songbook like style . whatever) would be great,
to make possibility to follow what I saved into my Backups.

This is only to collect some data from memory locations, from some structures.
And this could be only advantage for Korg,
not to make profit from this but to make customers content and that we will return to Korg for new arranger in the future.
Just like Songbook program.

Please do not think, that I can not manage my instrument over display, I managed my PA600 for first gig in four days,
with main part of songs in Songbook.

But after one year I do not remember every style that I added or deleted in the last year.

Regards,

sridharar · Post by **sridharar** » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:36 pm

What is laborious?? I am really intrigued that you would even ask this.

From my side...

Systematically trying out different parameter settings for getting the sound right and recall/applying them later as needed.

Systematically creating drum kits --- same as above -- plus tuning individual instruments coarse/fine as needed.

I do not care much for Styles/Chords as it is not much use for Indian Classical music. I understand that it may be created fast -- yet that could created much faster using a Software on laptop.

If only KORG would just publish the format of various files (Sound, Samples, Style, Globals, Presets etc) one can even use simple Text/HEX editors and find/replace macros for creating combinations systematically, reliably and fast and with little effort.

In this regard they are not opening up their Komono of jewels implemented by their underlying platform. We are also not asking them to do any additional investments in creating new things. Just share the formats along with a version number. This ways they do not have to even commit to compatibilities formward or backward.

Software promotes ease of interactivity, productivity and reliable automation. Users/humans should never be forced to do unnecessary rote work. And any work done should never be lost - and this would happen if settings can be entered only manually and LABORIOUSLY.

All software will have design and implementation bugs. And creation of more tools require investments. That is life. But there is no excuse to not providing simple mechanisms of workaround so users can contain/reduce their consequences.

I will hold here and not digress into talking about other minimum and reasonable expectations that are broken in PA600.

Br Sri.

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:19 am

Sri.

I think it is not possible to do what you want without a complete redesign of the keyboard. Unlike the workstations, the PA's are not really designed to be remotely controlled/programmed except for some limited MIDI controls. Perhaps it would have been better for you to look at the Krome or Kronus workstations. They both have PC editors and are not 'style/chord' oriented.

For myself I am more than satisfied with the PA600. I use Cakewalk Sonar to create MIDI files that I then import into the PA600 for style creation - fast and accurate. I'm slowly getting my head wrapped around the Sound Edit functions and am finding the on board sound editor more than sufficient for my needs. (I'm presently working on theater organ combo sounds)

By the way, do you have the commercial Indian resources SET? I was listening to some demos of that SET played on the PA600 on YouTube and to my untrained ear they sounded pretty good.

sridharar · Post by **sridharar** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:36 am

Hello Rick [All]

Thanks for your note.
Sorry for the radio silence for a while.
I was just distracted with other things.

[I am writing/capturing this here with the intent that I can copy/paste and send this to KORG Product support and discuss with them]

I really believe that what I have listed below are quite basic and do not need any revamp. Some minor UI/Top layer things changes should do the trick. I am basing this only on a black box view of KORG and without any knowledge or assumptions about their implementation architecture.

a) Add one more place/item/slot to the Global Scale -- so a user can program a scale and use it like all the other built-in scales. Even cheap keyboards provide for this now and have been available for many years. 15+ years ago, I found it available on most keyboards in $500 range, before I settled on one [Technics].

b) Ability to import and export that scale from/to file will add significantly to user's ability

c) Sub Scales -- I really do not know the purpose of making it transitory in scope. Make it controllable by a user. So it can be transitory or be lockable.

d) Assignable Switches -- ditto.

e) STS -- why are they write-only? We can only save and invoke, but cannot see what it contains. Yes this will add a new UI screen/form.

f) User Scale on STS -- Just have the ability to load it from a file -- rather than entering it manually.

g) Playing MP3 files --make it possible for adjusting the tuning of the keyboard for aligning it with MP3 song. Right now, anything one does to the keyboard also applies to MP3 play. Limiting paradigm.

h) Samples/Sounds should play clean. A basic expectation. I have not tested other sounds -- but I can vouch for this for the Violin Straight Sound. It does not play in a consistent manner across the key board. Sound jumps across some keys, sound plays differently coming from lower and higher keys, and right, and there are some ugly resonances. May be these are smarts built into the sound or rendering engine. Why not provide some guideline for turning them off to get a clean sound? Or just fix whatever is wrong with the sample.

i) Sequencer and Recording a Song: There is no way to apply or check and control that a desired scale/subscale is in force.

j) As I mentioned on an earlier note, PA600 does provide ways to import/export STY, PCG, SND, QTP etc. Why not provide some documentation of the formats? So we can use simple software utilities on our laptop.

[Fyi, it was quite simple to figure the QTP format and I am creating custom subscale settings for ragas now. Will post a separate on this]

k) Balance Knob -- make it work for recording. So while recording a backing sequence with a style, we do not have to individually change the volume settings of accompaniment tracks

k) Robustness of Joystick - I know this is a physical thing. Within a few months of use -- my Joystick is making so much of physical squeaking and rattling noises - not related to sound coming from the Keyboard. In comparison, on my other 15+ years keyboard, pitch bend wheel is still extremely quite. No squeaks of any kind.

I am sure I have recalled all the items. So I will pause here and add to these later.

I hope others could also add to these simpler-side feature needs.

Br Sri.