key transposition from another keyboard transposes the PA3x

[losackmd2]

set up
Korg PA3x audio outs inserted into ROLAND BK9 audio ins.
if i change the key on the ROLAND to -1 -2 -3 etc
the KORG will follow suit its style played its keyboard notes will also be transposed downward and the big problem is that there will be a delay in fact playing the notes on the KORG keyboard. The microphone also will follow suit and sound as if
the vocal is getting deeper in pitch.
there are no other connections at all here.
THis shouldnt be happening unless im missing a feature on the KORG

ROLAND has tested this and finds that this does not change the keyboard that is audio'd into the ROLAND if the ROLAND is transposed downward or upward.

please help with this issue.

thanks

[Reuben]

I'm no expert on connecting keyboards but it seems to me you should be connecting via midi cable not audio. Any audio you want from your Pa3x should go direct to the amplifier not thru the BK-9. So set it up so Roland key change sends midi signal to key change the Korg.
The problem with audio key change is that its very processor intensive and I'm guessing that's the cause of the delay.
On another topic - it seems you are in a unique position to do a comparison of these two keyboards. What do you think of the BK-9?
John

[losackmd2]

UPDATE from GLENN LOSACK

i only have 2 available stereo inputs on my SCARLETT 8i6
i didnt want to buy a mixer for the ROLAND and KORG to send audio into it and then send an out to the SCARLETTs 2 inputs

i thought the audio ins of the ROLAND would be just that
audio OUT from the KORG would be sent to the ROLAND INS and it would be sent out from the ROLAND to the SCARLETT the audio interface
this doesnt work. I dont want MIDI involved at all. It doesnt send audio it sends data.


i switched cables around.
KORG PA3x audio INS come in from the ROLAND BK-9 audio outs
if i transpose on the KORG Pa3x it does not affect anything on the ROLAND
at all!
if i change keys on the ROLAND it doesnt cause any changes on the KORG at all!
so they work independantly !

to sum up using audio only : IF
KORG outputs audio to ROLAND inputs then changing the TRANSPOSE FUNCTION ( key ) on the ROLAND will cause a transpose on the KORG a delay in playing notes and this becomes
dysfunctional and is a bug!

ROLAND said they tried this and couldnt duplicate it

if KORG INPUTS from ROLAND outputs then changing transpose/key on either machine does not affect the other machines' key.

sounds as if the KORG sends out its audio it is commandeered by the ROLAND in this case TRANSPOSITION acts on its own key and the KORG with a bad delay in sound.

the only way this works is KORG IN ROLAND OUT
and KORGs outs go to the audio interface
then this works no problems at all with transposition issues!
but why ! what is wrong with the KORG outs!!!????????
why should transposing on the Roland affect the KORG then?

the ROLAND sounds tremendous the styles are miraculous
i have barely learned the machine
i love the KORG too
the korg does more

ill post my findings later

thanks
please opine

glenn losack

[karmathanever]

Hi Glenn

This is basically what I do with 2 keyboards but I am confused by your message.

if KORG INPUTS from ROLAND outputs then changing transpose/key on either machine does not affect the other machines' key.

Correct - because you are dealing with audio and not MIDI.
This should be exactly the same either way around unless there is something very peculiar with the Roland.
Any "transposing" should only affect the audio on the keyboard being transposed
The transpose function on the Korg transposes the audio before it is output to the ROLAND.
Whatever comes out of the Korg is purely audio.

sounds as if the KORG sends out its audio it is commandeered by the ROLAND in this case TRANSPOSITION acts on its own key and the KORG with a bad delay in sound.

I have never experienced any delays
This very much sounds like the Roland is trying to do something with the audio it is receiving - if the ROLAND is re-processing the input audio for transposition then maybe that is where the problem lies - what you are describing sounds more like the delay is being caused in the ROLAND.
To test it - if you take the same audio cables from the Korg and plug them directly into an amp (instead of the ROLAND) then you should hear the same delay if the Korg is at fault.
If you are wanting to separately transpose INPUT audio then this will require processing power and maybe the problem with the ROLAND
What ROLAND model keyboard do you have?

A small cheap mixer may be a safer solution??

Cheers

Pete

[Leib]

you can test it in another simple way.

just plug the roland inputs to a different audio source e.g. a music playr etc.
and see if that audio will also be transposed when you transpose the roland.
if so, and it seems to me that's the case, its probably some feature on the roland transposing the auidio input.
i believe it shouldn't be hard to disable that.

----

BTW
speaking of work flow of 2 keyboards in playing live, how does one playing 2 arrangers/ keyboards transpose them both at once?

I've heard that the "midi standard 2" has some kind of "transpose" midi message.
has anyone here use this feature, or can explain how to do this another way?

---

it'll be very interesting to hear/see some nice stuff done with both KBD's, i heard the roland bk9 is amazing..


enjoy "both worlds"

Leib

[losackmd2]

Karma than ever you know your stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation U.S.)
Jun 18 10:15 am (PDT)

Hi Glenn,

We have confirmed this issue - when you press the KEY button on the BK-9, you will see there are 3 options for transposition - Keyboard, Song, or Keyboard + Song. Whenever "Song" is selected, the BK-9 will process any of the audio coming in the external inputs to transpose it with the keyboard, and this processing results in a delay of the signal. You can fix this by selecting "Keyboard" only when using the KEY button to transpose your playing. We will also check with the engineers to see if this is an issue that can be fixed or improved, or if the delay is unavoidable due to the amount of processing needed to transpose the incoming analog signal in real time.


Best Regards,

Product Support
Roland Corp. U.S.

[Dikikeys]

Interesting... I guess that Roland assume that you might be bringing in audio for backing tracks from a laptop or iPod, and if you decide to change key, it would be natural to want to change that too.

But I guess they forgot about it simply being used as an in for another keyboard!

I don't think there's any way for incoming audio to be key changed without adding some latency. That's simply what happens in even the best gear.

But an option to exclude the audio ins from transposition shouldn't be hard to add. Look out for the next update!

Simply changing to Keyboard as the option doesn't QUITE fix the issue, because, in Roland-speak, a 'Song' can be either an MP3/Wav or an SMF. So, if you are using an SMF in the BK, transposing the key with only Keyboard enabled won't transpose the SMF. Which is presumably what you MIGHT be after.

Roland simply need to add an option to disable transposition on incoming audio.You might still want it for those iPod tracks!