Hold key

[bentstavanger]

Hello everyone,

I play music in a fusion band, often mixed with Indian. We often need one or several notes sounding continously throughout a song, a drone note or chord. I have searched in the manual and on the keyboard for some function to facilitate this, but with no success.

On other keyboards the function is usually called "hold key" or "key latch" or some variation thereof. Does it exist on the Krome?

I would like to make a split with part of the keyboard assigned to this drone, and part of it assigned to playing melodies and such. I tried solving the problem by plugging a boss latch pedal into the damper input, and assigning it only to the drone part. It worked fine, but when I started playing on the other part of the keyboard, the polyphony was quickly spent, and the drone dissappeared.

What can I do to solve my problem? Thanx! :-/

[Bald Eagle]

You could try the Hold function that is available in program mode. Its like using a sustain pedal. In Program Mode go to page P1:Basic/Controllers ; subpage 1–2: Note-On/Scale. You can limit the key range but notes within that range are still going to eat up the polyphony. There is more information about it on page 14 in the Parameter Guide.

[billbaker]

Go old school...

Keith Emerson did it with weights on the keys (OK) and forks or knives jammed in between and bent over (not advisable with plastic keys... stick with a weight).

BB

[Bald Eagle]

Go old school...

Keith Emerson did it with weights on the keys (OK) and forks or knives jammed in between and bent over (not advisable with plastic keys... stick with a weight).

BB

I used to use match books on a Hammond ... its a bit easier on the keys than forks and knives

But back to being practical again ... Another possibility would be to use an RPPR pattern in the sequencer to create a drone.

[bentstavanger]

Hello Bald Eagle and billbaker,

Thank you for your suggestions. The hold function in the program mode can unfortunately not do the job. As you mention, Eagle, it still uses the polyphony shared with the rest of the keyboard, so the drone disappears as soon as a certain number of notes has been played on the other keys.

But even if it did not disappear, it would still be no good. I need to be able to turn the drone on and off during the song, and the hold function is just on all the time, until you switch to a different sound.

BB, holding down the keys mechanically is also not a viable solution. Often I need to make changes to the drone during the song, and the drone can involve up to 5 individual notes. All of the songs we play are in the keys of C# and F# (sitar tuning), so that makes it even more complicated, as the black keys have less surface to place a weight on. Higher risk of error, especially when the timing is crucial (and it always is).

RPPR seems quite complicated and would require me to work in song mode instead of Combi (which I had planned). That's a lot of extra reading, if I want to understand how this works. I had hoped to avoid this, as I am on tour and my time is limited. Also, I have no other uses for sequencing for the stuff I'm playing. However, if it is the only way of doing it, I will do it. But before I start reading and programming, I would like to hear your experiences with the RPPR feature:

Would it be possible to turn the drone on and of at arbitrary points during the performance, or would it have to be programmed for a certain number of bars, after which it would end by itself? The latter would be no good for me, as part of our performances is improvised.

Would it be possible to program an RPPR as a general pattern, in which any notes, intervals, quantities of notes, would fit? E.g. I start out by playing an octave, after a certain number of bars I add a 5th, later on a 4th, then go back to just the octave etc. Then for the next song I use the same RPPR, but play in a different key. Possible?

And lastly: Would it be possible maybe to use the Arpeggiator instead somehow? I could use that in Combi mode, which would save me a lot of trouble.

I must say, I'm somewhat disappointed, that a simple key hold/latch feature has not been included with the Krome. Many other keyboards simply have a button named ”hold” or ”latch” on the front panel. You press down the keys you want to hold, then the button, and the notes are sustained indefinitely, no matter what else you play on the keyboard.

Any suggestions you might have will be appreciated. Thanks for helping me.

P.S. Another thought: Would it possible to keep two zones on a split keyboard apart polyphony-wise, by assigning them to different OSC's? If possible, I could solve the drone problem by using a latch pedal in the damper port, and then disabling damper on the zone I did not wish to sustain...

Ah, well... The Drone Wars continue!

[nambuco67]

.....
If possible, I could solve the drone problem by using a latch pedal in the damper port, and then disabling damper on the zone I did not wish to sustain...
.....

This would be an easy solution, just create a Combi assign a layer for your drone and enable damper only for that layer (P5: MIDI Filter).

[bentstavanger]

.....
If possible, I could solve the drone problem by using a latch pedal in the damper port, and then disabling damper on the zone I did not wish to sustain...
.....

This would be an easy solution, just create a Combi assign a layer for your drone and enable damper only for that layer (P5: MIDI Filter).

OK, layer, not split? And then they have to be forced to using different OSC's? Then what if one sound uses 2 OSC's? I am a little confused here...

The problem with just assigning two different sounds to each their zone (split keyboard) is that they continue sharing the same polyphony. This means that the sustained sound disappears once the playing in the unsustained zone has "used up" all the available notes (around 100?). If soloing it takes 5-15 seconds... :-/

Anyway, please clarify what you mean with the layer technique.

[Bald Eagle]

Combi mode and Sequencer Mode is pretty much the same as far as setting up the programs so using the sequencer that way is not really much of an effort. There is a wiki over at karma-lab.com titled “Using SEQ mode as a "super combi" for live performance”. Although it won’t help with your specific issue it has a lot of information and is worth reading.

http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/korg-m3:us ... erformance

The RPPR pattern is a fixed length sequence that plays when you press a trigger key. You can run a pattern in one of three modes.
Once: When you press the key, the complete pattern will playback once to the end and then stop.
Manual: The pattern will continue repeating as long as you continue holding the key, and will stop as soon as you release the key.
Endless: The pattern will continue repeating even after you release the key. To stop the pattern playback, press any note below C2, or press the same key once again.

You can’t setup a general pattern that dynamically changes with RPPR. The only thing you can do is take an existing pattern and shift it up or down a given number of semi tones but it’s now a new pattern and I don’t think this will help you at all.

One important point about RPPR is that when you activate it all keys below C2 become unplayable since they get allocated to RPPR as pattern shutdown keys. Also, every pattern uses another key for the trigger key so you can lose a significant number of keys if you have a lot of patterns.

I can’t think of any way to use an arp to accomplish what you want.

There is no way around your polyphony concern. It won’t matter how you layer or split the combi. Playing notes uses polyphony and every oscillator that is currently sounding uses one note of polyphony until it has completed its cycle. In other words, if you layer 16 programs and play one single note it will use 16 notes of polyphony and if they are all double oscillator programs it will use 32 notes of polyphony and if they are all stereo samples it uses an incredible 64 notes of polyphony just for playing one single note.

I had always wanted a hold button but even then it would still be using polyphony while it was active.

I think you should give RPPR a try and see if works for you but if you can’t afford the lost keys or the polyphony is still an issue you may want to consider adding an external module and midi it to your Krome. A used M3-Module would integrate nicely and there would be almost no learning curve since the architecture is the same as the Krome. Of course any other module would also work.

[bentstavanger]

There is no way around your polyphony concern. It won’t matter how you layer or split the combi. Playing notes uses polyphony and every oscillator that is currently sounding uses one note of polyphony until it has completed its cycle. In other words, if you layer 16 programs and play one single note it will use 16 notes of polyphony and if they are all double oscillator programs it will use 32 notes of polyphony and if they are all stereo samples it uses an incredible 64 notes of polyphony just for playing one single note.

I had always wanted a hold button but even then it would still be using polyphony while it was active.

Hello Bald Eagle,

Thanks for your reply. The link you sent me is great, I'll give it a read after next gig. My keyboard is the 61 key version, so there are no keys below C2. In other words nothing to loose by using the RPPR solution. I don't think it will solve my problem, though. What I need is to be able to play a drone, slowly shifting the notes over the course of a whole song, and not just to activate one that plays itself. I'll mess around with it, though, and see what comes out of it. The arpeggiator has quarter notes as largest unit, so it will not be useful, as you said.

I still don't understand why the Krome has this problem with polyphony. Until now I have been using an Akai Miniak for drones, pads, sound fx etc. It has only 8 note polyphony, but will never loose the drone, no matter for how long you play in the other split(s) on the keyboard. If I press latch together with 3 keys, I just have 5 notes left to play on the other split(s), the sustained sound is maintained no matter what. On the Krome I never play many notes at the same time, but for some reason sooner or later, one split eats into the polyphony of the other. So, even if a note has already stopped sounding, it still takes up resources or what? E.g. I Press down three keys in the drone split (no layer, so maximum of 6 OSC's, right?), then play single notes in the melody split. After playing for 5-15 seconds, the notes in the drone suddenly disappear one by one with each new key I press down in the melody split. So even though very few notes are actually sounding at the same time, it is as if the keyboard still remembers what has been played. Maybe it goes through some sort of cycle of the OSC's, so that it has to use them all one by one, before returning to the start of the cycle and using the same ones again, no matter if they are actually sounding or not?

Well, for next gig (tomorrow) I will have to bring my Akai, which is a shame. I had hoped to use only one keyboard, overweight charges are crazy these days, and mixer channels are scarce (our percussionist uses 14!)...

Once again, thanks for the suggestions.

[billbaker]

The only solution I can think of for the note stealing issue is to use the EXT (external assigment) to play a slaved module. It's OSC's, being outboard, would not be subject to the other keys played.

You should be able to set that up in combi mode and using defined ranges put things where you want them.

Of course you'd need a module for that.

I believe that only a separate synth engine can absolutely garantee to get you the polyphony separation you'd need to resolve this particular problem. Older gear using MOSS EXB's had pre-assigned osc useage, but AFAIK there is no dedicated osc assignment available within the Krome's architecture.

An arp might help in combi mode if the sound (program) being played is set up so that the release time covers or disguises the initial "note-on" volume of the next note played. That could allow you to re-trigger the drone voice automatically putting it back at the head of the line where polyphony and note stealing is concerned (oldest note played [drone] is the first to be cut). And even sitar requires an occasional string strike to keep the drone sounding.

A low speed one-note repeating pattern arp at low speed might actually sound like a rhythmic drone pattern closer to a real sitar. Also, regardless of the number of tracks or split or layered mode the arp can be set up such that only the drone notes are triggered, that they don't sound in non-arp play, and that the assignable foot-switch can be used to start/stop the arp remotely.


BB

[bentstavanger]

A low speed one-note repeating pattern arp at low speed might actually sound like a rhythmic drone pattern closer to a real sitar.

Yes, I was thinking along those lines also. It would fit well with some songs, however in other pieces I would like just a steady pad... Well, off to next gig. I'll experiment with it when I get back.

[nambuco67]

OK, layer, not split? And then they have to be forced to using different OSC's? Then what if one sound uses 2 OSC's? I am a little confused here...

The problem with just assigning two different sounds to each their zone (split keyboard) is that they continue sharing the same polyphony. This means that the sustained sound disappears once the playing in the unsustained zone has "used up" all the available notes (around 100?). If soloing it takes 5-15 seconds... :-/

Anyway, please clarify what you mean with the layer technique.

In Combi mode, Krome has 16 layers (tracks or sounds, whatever you call it). To have a "split", you actually need to define diferent zones for each layer. Part of your keyboard will play one layer (sound) and other part will play the other layer (sound).

For example, you can define left part of your Krome to play Organ and right part to play Piano. On Organ layer, you can enable damper and disable damper for Piano layer. Damper will only sustain Organ sounds and you freely play piano with sustained Organ sounds.

I just tested this setup to be sure it works, rsrs.

Concerning polyphony, no issue. I tested it.

I understand polyphony limits are related to simultaneous played keys. If you play, and sustain a 4 note chord on Organ side, you still have plenty notes to play simultaneously on Piano side.

I hope I could explain what I meant.

Regards,

Paulo

[billbaker]

The problem arises when you are using multi oscillator voices in multiple layers (as you might well do in a combi with 16 layerable tracks) and playing other chords or melodic runs over held notes, most especially if you use a sustain pedal as well.

Perhaps you didn't experience the problem. Not doubting your experience, just saying you might not see it, but you're also not using the same patch, playing technique and controllers as the OP.

Voice stealing is a real phenomenon, and is a common problem. Some synths have a smarter routine written into software that will steal an oscillator - typically the second of a given sound - so as not to kill the sound completely. Others have so much polyphony the problem rarely arises.

If you had 16 double oscillator voices layered together (worst case scenario) that would be 32 oscillators per note. A typical (for me) 5 note chord would need 160 oscillators, and if I sustain the chord and solo over it every note I play wants 32 notes. The typical note-stealing protocol is first note in is first note cut - regardless of whether you're holding it still. Sooner or later something will disappear that leaves an audible void in your sound.


BB

[nambuco67]

BB,

I understood your point. I did not had a problem because I used only 2 layers.

Paulo

[bentstavanger]

In Combi mode, Krome has 16 layers (tracks or sounds, whatever you call it). To have a "split", you actually need to define diferent zones for each layer. Part of your keyboard will play one layer (sound) and other part will play the other layer (sound).

For example, you can define left part of your Krome to play Organ and right part to play Piano. On Organ layer, you can enable damper and disable damper for Piano layer. Damper will only sustain Organ sounds and you freely play piano with sustained Organ sounds.

I understand polyphony limits are related to simultaneous played keys. If you play, and sustain a 4 note chord on Organ side, you still have plenty notes to play simultaneously on Piano side.

Hello Paulo, BB, and Bald Eagle,

Thanks for your interest in my problem (muito obrigado)!

Paulo, I understand the way the combis work in relation to layers and splits (zones). I also understand the way the damper pedal can be assigned to one sound and not the other via the MIDI filter menu (P5). However, let's avoid the term layer as it could confuse the picture of what I'm trying to do here, i.e. create a split with a drone in the lower part, and not a layer.

I would like to clarify the problem. What I am trying to do is very simple, and should be possible at least in theory, as very few notes are actually sounding at the same time. Let me give you an example of a combi I created with factory sounds on my Krome-61. It should be easy to reproduce:

Program 1: A049: E.P MK I PreAmp&Cabinet (zone G3 to G9)
Program 2: D052: Paddylicious (zone C-1 to F#3)

Both sounds use 2 OSC's, this is the way they were programmed and is not due to layering. There is no additional layering, I'm using just these two sounds. The damper pedal is disabled for the EP sound via the MIDI filter. So, the idea is to create a split with a pad sound in the lower part of the keyboard for laying down a bass note or a chord, and EP in the upper part for playing chords, melody, and soloing on top of the drone bass or chord. The drone can be held by a damper pedal, or a latch foot switch. I've tried both, and there is no difference in the result.

Here is what happens: I lay down a drone and hold it with the damper, then I start playing on top of it. After a number of notes in the upper zone, the drone starts gradually disappearing. When the 119th key is pressed in the upper zone, the drone is completely gone. I have made following additional observations:

1) It makes no difference if I play chords, scales, or even just one single key repeatedly. After a total of 119 keys have been pressed, or the same key 119 times, the drone is gone.

2) It makes no difference how many notes are in the drone. The more notes in the drone, the sooner the voice stealing will start. But always as the 119th key is pressed, the drone is completely gone.

3) It makes no difference how fast I play. I can repeat a chord with 5 notes very fast, or play a slow scale with single notes. Always after 119 key presses, the drone disappears. One time I tried patiently playing VERY slowly, 1-2 seconds between each time I pressed the same key. Then it took more key presses to kill the drone, maybe 200-300. I lost count, and haven't got the patience to repeat the experiment. In any case it has no practical value in a real life situation, but could be useful in understanding how the oscillators work.

4) The voice stealing occurs one OSC at a time. E.g. a drone played with just one key will thin out at the press of the 118th key, and disappear completely at the press of the 119th. This is a little weird, since the EP sound in the upper zone also uses two OSC's, and therefore it would be more logical if the voice stealing ocurred note for note, and not OSC for note. However, it might be as you suggest, BB:

Voice stealing is a real phenomenon, and is a common problem. Some synths have a smarter routine written into software that will steal an oscillator - typically the second of a given sound - so as not to kill the sound completely.

Please try to replicate my combi and see if you get the same results. If you DO observe the same phenomena: Why does this happen, and what could be done to avoid it? If you do NOT observe the same phenomena: GREAT! What did I do wrong?

Once again, many thanks for your interest.

P.S. Paulo, I lived in Brazil for many years and speak Portuguese fluently. But let's continue in English, as this is an English language forum. 'Tá bom, mano?

P.P.S. Bald Eagle, I read the article about combi vs. seq, great stuff, thanks. It is definitely more complicated working with seq's than with combis, but now I at least know the difference between them. Tomorrow I will start working on the Arpeggiator solution to see if I can make it work for me. If not, I might try out the RPPR solution.