Bug or feature? Another strange Midi behaviour...

markn · Post by **markn** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Another strange behaviour occures in V2.11.
I'm using a combi consisting of 2 sounds which i play on Kronos on Midi-Global-Channel 1. All other slots are set to off an mute, except slot 15 which is set to EXT-Ch15, but muted. So this slot is supposed to send the selected Program change Number to my Moog, but nothing else.
But the Moog is also receiving the contollers, like Sustain Pedal, Pitch bend and Modulation, from the Kronos, which is pretty bad.
I'm sure that this was different in previous system versions.

So i'm asking myself: Bug or feature?

SynthKeyWizard · Post by **SynthKeyWizard** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Try midi filter option. You can disable midi messages you don`t need.

markn · Post by **markn** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:09 pm

Thx for your answer SynthKeyWizard. This is a possible workaround, but it' not funny to do this for 53 Combis.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:55 pm

NOT A BUG! This has been a feature since as far back as the Triton (as far as I know). This is what Global Channel is all about. Channel 1 is set up as the global channel, so it sends all MIDI messages to all channels. You could probably switch the Global Channel, but then you would probably have to change MIDI channels in Timbres in you Combis and other things. The MIDI filter is the best way to go. Then "write" the changes. And back up to a PCG file.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:46 pm

If you build Combis from scratch, might be wise to make a 'template" that sets up your Timbre 15 channel and MIDI assignments for the Moog and write it. When you go to construct a Combi, select this template and build from there. I have one such Combi set up for my Hammond XK-1. I have all the MIDI filters saved as part of the Combi. I also have set the KeyZone set to C-1 for both the Top and Bottom Key, because I noticed that the Kronos would "steal" polyphony from the Hammond, even though I had that Timbre muted. This was how I used to Mute an Ext Timbre on my Triton, because the Triton didn't have a Mute button.
BTW - what Moog are you using?

markn · Post by **markn** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:41 am

ronnfigg wrote: ...This was how I used to Mute an Ext Timbre on my Triton, because the Triton didn't have a Mute button.
BTW - what Moog are you using?

I agree to your explanation as far as the EXT is unmuted. In my case the slot15 is set to EXT, but muted. This means that the mute button is having no other effect than filtering the keyboard messages, but not the rest.

I'm going to compare this tonight to my Oasys and let you know. Unfortunately i can' downgrade my Kronos System version right now, cause i got gigs upcoming this weekend

BTW: I'm using a Minimoog Voyager.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:10 am

I just remembered something else. You should be using Ext2. Ext would be used if you're using another Kronos or something with a similar architecture like another Korg product. Ext2 is set up so that you can send bank select messages for non-Korg products. Are you saying that it worked differently with earlier OS versions? I know it was working this way (the way you are experiencing) in previous versions of the OS. And I take it you have the Voyager set to receive on MIDI channel 15? But due to CCs being sent on the Global Channel (Gch) the Voyager is going to receive and respond to these CCs. I do not think the Voyager has any filters for CCs.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:58 am

Read Combination mode- page 1110 of the OS 2.1.1Parameter Guide (PG). That should explain it. I believe it was this way in earlier versions of the OS. I just looked in OS 1.5 PG page 1117 and the exact same description is there-verbatim. So this is not something new.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:28 am

Just switch your Moog to a different midi channel and change the channel the PC is being sent on.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:32 am

Sander- I do this with my Hammond XK-1, but CCs are still transmitted by the Kronos and recieved by the XK-1. I still have to use the MIDI filters to disable things like the damper pedal, etc. An interesting fact- the CC that the ribbon controller sends activates a spring reverb crash in the XK-1 ala Keith Emerson! I usually filter that too!

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:22 pm

Yeah believe it or not those messages are actually useful to some of us.

Everything from mixer level and pan (sent on init along with prog change) to realtime performance controls are sent on an EXT or EXT2 timbre. handy for setting everything up right for a song or for controling modules or layering other synths within a Kronos combination.

Of course confusing if you're not expecting it..

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:26 pm

ronnfigg wrote:Sander- I do this with my Hammond XK-1, but CCs are still transmitted by the Kronos and recieved by the XK-1. I still have to use the MIDI filters to disable things like the damper pedal, etc. An interesting fact- the CC that the ribbon controller sends activates a spring reverb crash in the XK-1 ala Keith Emerson! I usually filter that too!

Huh weird indeed, thanks for the heads up!

markn · Post by **markn** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:30 pm

X-Trade wrote:Yeah believe it or not those messages are actually useful to some of us.

Everything from mixer level and pan (sent on init along with prog change) to realtime performance controls are sent on an EXT or EXT2 timbre. handy for setting everything up right for a song or for controling modules or layering other synths within a Kronos combination.

Of course confusing if you're not expecting it..

I agree, they are useful to set up the midi-environment. I just didn´t expect that events are sent to a muted channel.
Meanwhile i restored OS 2.02, it behaves similar. Also checked with the Oasys, it´s the same, so you guys are right, it´s always been this way .
I´m just wondering why i never realized this before.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:25 am

markn wrote:
X-Trade wrote:Yeah believe it or not those messages are actually useful to some of us.

Everything from mixer level and pan (sent on init along with prog change) to realtime performance controls are sent on an EXT or EXT2 timbre. handy for setting everything up right for a song or for controling modules or layering other synths within a Kronos combination.

Of course confusing if you're not expecting it..
I agree, they are useful to set up the midi-environment. I just didn´t expect that events are sent to a muted channel.
Meanwhile i restored OS 2.02, it behaves similar. Also checked with the Oasys, it´s the same, so you guys are right, it´s always been this way .
I´m just wondering why i never realized this before.

Markn- easily understandable. As deep as the Kronos programming is just by itself, finding out things about connecting it up to other instruments is just another part of the equation. I have stumbled on a lot of this stuff myself such as the ribbon controller giving me the reverb crash on my Hammond. I remember having to do similar things with my Triton and my hammond. At least the Kronos allows for a few more things, such as the muting. But like I said before you might also want to restrict the key zone for your Voyager-if you're playing both the Kronos and the Voyager at the same time you may find that the Kronos is stealing notes from the Voyager, even though the timbre is muted. I have verified this. so go ahead and start editing those 52 Combis. Just be comforted in the fact that you can write all of that and never have to do it again.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:58 am

It was the same way with the Triton series too, by the way.