Single Trigger Envelopes

[phattbuzz]

http://youtu.be/Ftef4eqCSoI?t=19m21s
Trying to figure out how to achieve this effect where the release time cuts off when a new note is played. Would like to do it in one of the synth engines but I haven't figured a way to do it yet. From what this guy says it is a monophonic envelope generator; that makes sense. It was used on the 1970s string machines. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
phattbuzz

[Citizen Klaus]

The only thing I can think of is to use combi mode: set up a basic polyphonic string-synth sound on channel 1, but leave the filter and amp sections untouched. Use basic organ-style envelopes. Then route channel 1 to one of the FX Control busses, so that it won't be heard by itself in the final output.

On channel 2, set up a monophonic sound using either MS-20EX or MOD-7, depending on the filter characteristic that you want. Mute the built-in oscillators on channel 2's synth. Channel 2 will effectively provide the final filter, amp, and envelope settings for the synth on channel 1. Then designate the FX Control bus from the previous step as the EXi audio input on channel 2, and set channel 2's internal mixer accordingly. You'd be playing a polyphonic sound on channel 1, with monophonic envelopes on channel 2.

[phattbuzz]

The only thing I can think of is to use combi mode: set up a basic polyphonic string-synth sound on channel 1, but leave the filter and amp sections untouched. Use basic organ-style envelopes. Then route channel 1 to one of the FX Control busses, so that it won't be heard by itself in the final output.

On channel 2, set up a monophonic sound using either MS-20EX or MOD-7, depending on the filter characteristic that you want. Mute the built-in oscillators on channel 2's synth. Channel 2 will effectively provide the final filter, amp, and envelope settings for the synth on channel 1. Then designate the FX Control bus from the previous step as the EXi audio input on channel 2, and set channel 2's internal mixer accordingly. You'd be playing a polyphonic sound on channel 1, with monophonic envelopes on channel 2.

Using Basic Organ-Style Envelopes would defeat the purpose. If there is no release cycle sent to the monophonic envelope, it will still have that organ cut-off at the release stage.

Speaking of organs, the percussion on the CX3 generator has the general idea, but the wrong envelope shape. The percussion has a monophonic envelope; you can actually play several notes before it decays. It is only a two stage envelope, however, being of an attack and decay. Attack time is zero but the attack level is full on. Decay time can be fast or slow. A new envelope only starts when all fingers have left the keyboard and a new note/chord is played.
I'm looking for that scenario but using a full ADSR envelope. Does that make more sense?

[Citizen Klaus]

The only thing I can think of is to use combi mode: set up a basic polyphonic string-synth sound on channel 1, but leave the filter and amp sections untouched. Use basic organ-style envelopes. Then route channel 1 to one of the FX Control busses, so that it won't be heard by itself in the final output.

On channel 2, set up a monophonic sound using either MS-20EX or MOD-7, depending on the filter characteristic that you want. Mute the built-in oscillators on channel 2's synth. Channel 2 will effectively provide the final filter, amp, and envelope settings for the synth on channel 1. Then designate the FX Control bus from the previous step as the EXi audio input on channel 2, and set channel 2's internal mixer accordingly. You'd be playing a polyphonic sound on channel 1, with monophonic envelopes on channel 2.

Using Basic Organ-Style Envelopes would defeat the purpose. If there is no release cycle sent to the monophonic envelope, it will still have that organ cut-off at the release stage.

Sorry, my bad. You'd want to set the release for channel 1 up to full, so that you get something as close to a raw oscillator signal (always on) as possible. (You may also want to limit the maximum number of notes for channel 1's program, especially if you're planning to use this in a combi with other sounds. With release up full, you'll consume polyphony quite quickly.)

The trick here is that channel 2 provides your ADSR controls; all that channel 1 is doing is supplying the polyphonic oscillator outputs. The ADSR controls for channel 1 don't matter at all, as long as they don't interfere with channel 2's EG.

This mimics the signal flow of a paraphonic string synth, where the divide-down oscillators are summed to a common filter, amp, and EG.

I'm looking for that scenario but using a full ADSR envelope. Does that make more sense?

Yup. That's what I was trying to get at with my initial post.

[phattbuzz]

I had tried using AMS on the release time, but couldn't find a suitable source; unfortunately there's no new note or even gate available.

[Citizen Klaus]

I had tried using AMS on the release time, but couldn't find a suitable source; unfortunately there's no new note or even gate available.

I also tried using gate effects and other tricks before arriving at the solution above. I don't think this is an effect that can be pulled off within a single program, due to how the Kronos handles envelope triggering.

[Citizen Klaus]

Sorry, my bad. You'd want to set the release for channel 1 up to full, so that you get something as close to a raw oscillator signal (always on) as possible. (You may also want to limit the maximum number of notes for channel 1's program, especially if you're planning to use this in a combi with other sounds. With release up full, you'll consume polyphony quite quickly.)

Actually, scratch that -- this wouldn't work as well as I thought. You still need some way to silence the current channel 1 notes upon retriggering. Back to the drawing board...

[jeremykeys]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to achieve here.

Let me know if I have it right.

If you play your first note, hold it, say for a couple of beats, then release it, it decays until you play the next note. The first note stops completely? And you are trying to do this polyphonically?

I used to have a very old Roland string machine but I don't remember it doing this. Maybe it was on the ARP Solinas?

Jeremykeys the Curious!

[Citizen Klaus]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to achieve here.

Let me know if I have it right.

If you play your first note, hold it, say for a couple of beats, then release it, it decays until you play the next note. The first note stops completely? And you are trying to do this polyphonically?

I used to have a very old Roland string machine but I don't remember it doing this. Maybe it was on the ARP Solinas?

Jeremykeys the Curious!

As I understand it, what the OP is trying to do is create a sound with a long release, but where any new keypress will silence all currently-sounding voices. Polyphonic oscillators with a monophonic VCA and envelope.

Some string machines (like the Solina) did this, while others did not. The key was in how they implemented envelopes and VCAs. Gordon Reid explains this a bit better, about halfway down the article: some string machines (like the Logan String Melody II) featured dedicated AR envelopes for each note on the keyboard, allowing them to approximate what we now know of as polyphonic envelope triggering. But others (like the Solina and, evidently, the Crumar Trilogy) summed all oscillators into a global VCA controlled by a single monophonic EG. The result: the behavior outlined above.

(If you have the Legacy MonoPoly VSTi, you can hear an example of this behavior by setting the key assign mode to "original" [paraphonic] and turning up the release knob for the VCA EG.)

[phattbuzz]

Citizen Klaus has stated it perfectly. I still haven't found a way to do it on the Kronos yet. Might have to wrap my head around Karma and see if there's a parameter in there (but I doubt it).

[MarPabl]

Read this thread Paraphonic Envelopes & String Synths

[phattbuzz]

Read this thread Paraphonic Envelopes & String Synths

Very good MarPal. Hadn't realized this had already been discussed in length.
I see that you had found a solution using the MS20's patch panel. Could you elaborate on that at all?
Thanks,
phattbuzz

[MarPabl]

Read this thread Paraphonic Envelopes & String Synths

Very good MarPal. Hadn't realized this had already been discussed in length.
I see that you had found a solution using the MS20's patch panel. Could you elaborate on that at all?
Thanks,
phattbuzz

First, you must know how to route any Synth Engine to MS20EX Read this thread:  Demo: Freaky Experiments With The Drumtrack QR

Then you apply the envelope I was talking about to the external signal. You may wish to check this tutorial: Korg Kronos Tutorial: 13 MS-20 Patch Panel Programming

I hope you'll be right on track with those references.

[X-Trade]

I ended up using the mod sequencer to do it, which is mostly satisfactory.

[SanderXpander]

The MS20 mode has the problem of not muting already playing notes, right?
And X-Trade, could you elaborate? It would be nice to get a definitive solution!