Cables

BruceG · Post by **BruceG** » Sat May 16, 2015 12:37 pm

First off apologies for this old chestnut, I've been ploughing through old topics for this and can't find any. One of my cables from my Kronos to my mixer developed an intermittent fault so I started to look for replacements which brought up my queries.

I understand balanced is best but on looking at suppliers online all the balanced cables on offer are described as stereo and I use two 1/4" jack mono cables L & R to my mixer. One image of mono balanced jacks that I found on an online article had 2 rings just like stereo, and another manufacturer referred to "stereo/balanced mono" inferring they are the same thing. I also noticed my speaker cables that came packaged with my powered speakers have 1/4" jacks with 2 rings which plug into my mixer with XLR connectors at the other end.

I want to get the best cables so as to eliminate any hum and get the cleanest sound possible, but I'm confused as to what I should be going for. My set up is simple 2 synths each L & R's into one LTO mixer then Left and right out to 2 DX10 powered speakers.

(I plugged in some Lynx cables which were sent to me in error which have "Pro Audio balanced audio OFC microphone cable" printed on the cable which have the 2 rings and seem to work fine plugged in L & R but I want to be sure I'm using the right cables especially as I use them in live gigs where volume and interference can be an issue).

So is stereo and balanced the same thing?

Should I go for mono balanced if I can find them?

Would it be better not to use the Lynx ones I've got as they are meant for microphones ? (although they came with 1/4" jacks on each end and wouldn't therefore fit on a mike).

Any clarification would be extremely helpful.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat May 16, 2015 1:01 pm

In order to create a balanced connection, an extra line inside the cable is needed. Simply put, there is +, - and ground. So it will look like a stereo cable, basically.

But it only helps to make a balanced connection if both sides have balanced connectors. Otherwise the extra lead is meaningless. Are you sure your mixer has balanced inputs?

awyatt1 · Post by **awyatt1** » Sat May 16, 2015 1:16 pm

First off, there is no such thing as "balanced" or "unbalanced" cable. Often times, TRS or XLR cable is incorrectly referred to as "balanced" cable or "stereo" cable. TRS or XLR cable can be used to make a balanced connection between a balanced output and a balanced input. If both output and input are not balanced, using TRS or XLR will not make a balanced connection. Also, TRS and XLR cable can be used to carry a stereo signal like with headphones, but more often than not it is used to carry a mono signal between a balanced output and balanced input. So, no, balanced and stereo is not the same thing.

postman · Post by **postman** » Sat May 16, 2015 1:19 pm

Balanced is needed if you are using long cables. If you have your mixer nearby, you don't need balanced cables.

If you want to used the balanced signal, you can use special cables. Normally they have 1/4" jack to one end and XLR to the other end. The 1/4 jack is similar to a stereo jack with two rings, but is certainly not a stereo cable. You can find them in a music or pro audio store. I am not familiar with the Lynx cables, so I can't help you there.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat May 16, 2015 1:55 pm

awyatt1 wrote:First off, there is no such thing as "balanced" or "unbalanced" cable. Often times, TRS or XLR cable is incorrectly referred to as "balanced" cable or "stereo" cable. TRS or XLR cable can be used to make a balanced connection between a balanced output and a balanced input. If both output and input are not balanced, using TRS or XLR will not make a balanced connection. Also, TRS and XLR cable can be used to carry a stereo signal like with headphones, but more often than not it is used to carry a mono signal between a balanced output and balanced input. So, no, balanced and stereo is not the same thing.

I don't think this is accurate, I would definitely speak of a balanced cable. An XLR can still be connected to a two-lead cable. The fact that it doesn't make a balanced connection if the inputs/outputs aren't balanced is separate from this. If you're looking for the right kind of cable for a balanced connection it will help looking for balanced cable.

Ottawa58 · Post by **Ottawa58** » Sat May 16, 2015 2:58 pm

I recently bought balanced cables since the Kronos and my speakers both support them. There were several possible choices, and the manufacturers clearly labelled them 'balanced'.

My sound is clearer, but I am unable to positively identify cause and effect as I also rearranged the room. The science behind them is sound

so why not?

BruceG · Post by **BruceG** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:06 pm

Hi guys, I really appreciate all the feedback so quickly. All the inputs and outputs I connect through are balanced. The stereo inputs on my mixer into which I connect the L & R cables from the Kronos are balanced as are the main L & R output to speakers.

It may be as postman suggested I don't need balanced from Kronos to mixer as it's only about 1.5 to 2 metres away, although I thought the length issue was about degradation of the signal rather than the uptake of interference from other equipment which I presumed you'd still get even through a short cable. I have balanced cables from the mixer to the speakers which tend to be 4 or more metres away and often, inevitably in a gigging situation, are close to or even touching other cables.

Thanks to awyatt1 and sanderXpander for clearing up the stereo/balanced query.

The mono balanced cables with XLR were readily available but they don't seem to be with the 1/4" jack on each end.

Thanks once again to all respondees.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:22 pm

You may be looking at TS jack cables, which aren't balanced. You should be looking at TRS. They look like a large stereo phone plug.

BruceG · Post by **BruceG** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:31 pm

Thanks sanderXpander, that's why it becomes confusing and is so easy to order the wrong cables as they look exactly like stereo cables. I'll search and include TRS in the search criteria.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat May 16, 2015 3:38 pm

A stereo cable uses 3 leads. Connected to a stereo output, one will be left, one will be right and one will be ground. A balanced cable also uses three leads - one for +, one for - and one for ground. So essentially they're the same cable. This is what awyatt1 was getting at.
In order to feed the three leads, in both cases you need a connector with three connection points, like an XLR or a TRS jack.

tomto66 · Post by **tomto66** » Sat May 16, 2015 5:37 pm

The reasoning behind use of balanced cables is easy to understand: here is a great explanation:

http://www.aviom.com/blog/balanced-vs-unbalanced/

BruceG · Post by **BruceG** » Sat May 16, 2015 6:55 pm

Thanks tomto, a very useful explanation. It would be great if the suppliers could start making their product descriptions clearer for the un-initiated and stop flinging in words like stereo into the mix which just confuses things.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat May 16, 2015 7:00 pm

If it helps, there is no such thing as a cable that carries a balanced AND stereo signal. If you've been following the previous explanations, such a cable would have to carry a + and a - for each side of the stereo spectrum and at least one ground, making it 5 leads inside a single cable and also a five pronged/holed/sleeved connector.

Just remember that both "balanced" and "stereo" require three leads. Same cable, just depends on the application.

awyatt1 · Post by **awyatt1** » Sat May 16, 2015 9:09 pm

SanderXpander wrote:
awyatt1 wrote:First off, there is no such thing as "balanced" or "unbalanced" cable. Often times, TRS or XLR cable is incorrectly referred to as "balanced" cable or "stereo" cable. TRS or XLR cable can be used to make a balanced connection between a balanced output and a balanced input. If both output and input are not balanced, using TRS or XLR will not make a balanced connection. Also, TRS and XLR cable can be used to carry a stereo signal like with headphones, but more often than not it is used to carry a mono signal between a balanced output and balanced input. So, no, balanced and stereo is not the same thing.
I don't think this is accurate, I would definitely speak of a balanced cable. An XLR can still be connected to a two-lead cable. The fact that it doesn't make a balanced connection if the inputs/outputs aren't balanced is separate from this. If you're looking for the right kind of cable for a balanced connection it will help looking for balanced cable.

I disagree. You can speak of a balanced cable (and many do), but there is nothing balanced about it. The cable is capable of carrying a balanced signal, but the cable itself is neither balanced or unbalanced. It's a cable with 3 leads. An XLR can indeed be connected to a two-lead cable, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The reason I think the distinction is important is because it leads to a lot of confusion. If you look at the post above, you'll see. First, it says using balanced cable is needed if you are using long cables. No, it's not needed if either your output or input is not balanced because it will be of no benefit. Then, it says in order to used the balanced signal you can use special cables that have a 1/4 jack similar to a stereo jack with two rings, but is certainly not a stereo cable. Well, it could be a "stereo" cable if it were carrying a stereo signal. It is certainly capable of carrying a stereo signal. A cable with 3 leads such as TRS-TRS, XLR-XLR, or TRS-XLR is capable of carrying a balanced signal, but only if it is connected to balanced inputs and outputs. If not, it will be carrying an unbalanced signal and the cable will be no more "balanced" than a regular instrument cable. These cables are also capable of carrying a stereo signal, but there is nothing "stereo" about the cable if it is carrying a mono signal. Referring to these cables as balanced or stereo is misleading.

BruceG · Post by **BruceG** » Sat May 16, 2015 9:31 pm

I understand exactly what you're saying awyatt1, to get a balanced cable all the parts in the chain including the inputs and outputs have to be balanced. My point is these cables should be sold in a clear and unambiguous way so that if I want a mono jack to jack balanced cable I can buy one confident that I'm getting what I require. I sometimes wonder if the people who sell these items fully understand it themselves.

I appreciate everyone's input on this. I hope I can get the cable I want and then get back to enjoying my Kronos. Life's too short.

Regards
Bruce