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| Who would find a session view type sequencer useful? |
| Yes |
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79% |
[ 19 ] |
| No |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| Maybe |
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16% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
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radside
Junior Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 53
Location: VA, USA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think people need to look at what is in place and how to enhance it, as opposed to reworking the whole OS. Sharp's suggestion of more editing features, in Pattern mode is a practical request. |
Agreed. I am already familiar with and like the workflow and the architecture and I don't want to change that. I just need better implementation of already existing functions. Bring back the cue list, enable multitrack patterns, tab the pages where needed to enlarge channel/track strips, similar to the TS, etc.
Rick |
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mike,
| Mike Conway wrote: |
What motivates people to buy an OASYS, is having many synths under one hood. For some, it will be the only synth they need. (I hardly ever turn anything else on.) If this is a hardware users main/only synth, then the sequencer becomes a bigger deal. People, like us, hate having to leave our keyboard and make adjustments on the computer.
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I totally agree - and the Oasys is the first product to truly get close to only needing 1 synth to do pretty much everything. Already it has sound and synth capabilities that we're still just on the edge of exploring - and with a few more EXi its capabilities/quality from a sound point of view will be such that you'll barely/never have to use anything else.
| Mike Conway wrote: |
I think people need to look at what is in place and how to enhance it, as opposed to reworking the whole OS.
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I've tried (and probably failed) to keep this in mind throughout my ramblings here. There's no way we'll see a reaktor EXi - and I'd far rather that time was spent on incremental worthwhile advancements. My list of suggested sequencer enhancements was actually rather small.
| Domc wrote: |
- session view (live 5 or 6)
- ease of importing .mid files, .wav .mp3 files (live 5 or 6)
- ease of timestretching audio manipulation of clips (live 5 or 6)
- piano roll editing of musical notes (cubase or live)
- visual editing of CC/automation parameters (cubase or live)
- visual display of channel output meters pre and post effects (cubase or live)
- and lastly more midi tracks
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To this I should have added cue list, but the implementation of this list IMHO would move a long way from the current hardware sequencer to a system employing the most useful/time saving features of the software ones. Now adding some of these features incrementally is probably more difficult than others - but most are already partially implemented. The most difficult are probably the real time audio manipulation of clips (although sample mode does have some timestretching algorithms already coded) and adding the extra midi tracks (which piles up the pressure on the processor).
This leads to a slightly different perspective to you re objective in that I would be deliberately trying to exceed the current crop of hardware sequencers (not by rewriting the OS but enhancing the existing one). As per my discussion yesterday with Daz, I genuinely feel this would be a selling point in itself (in addition to all the sound engines), and as the technology would no doubt find its way into subsequent products would create a buzz/noise around its sequencing/ease of use capability that would be self sustaining and help other product sales.
Lastly,
| Mike Conway wrote: |
Regarding "Session View," I don't know what it is. I have not seen it, so I have no opinion on that feature. I'm not against Korg utilizing something useful, if they can implement it. |
Not to take you away from your great project on the tutorial, but given your huge interest in music (from the pics of your studio and all your posts) then I think you owe it to yourself to get a buddy to show you 'session view' in live for 15 minutes (or download the demo but that would take longer to figure out). To use a familiar analogy its like patterns on steroids, but its real winning feature is it allows you to do almost the same with audio clips as with midi patterns (slow them down, start and stop them etc). It's a highly creative and intuitive system, that is both useful for composition and also for live use. And to come full circle to how I started the thread, at least half of its implementation (the midi side) should be pretty easy to do on the Oasys via a matrix as most of the coding for patterns has already been done.
Anyway I've failed in part with this thread as I was hoping to stimulate some semi-official comment from those more in the know on some of the topics/thoughts raised here  I wonder what is really in the works.
Cheers, domc
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Removed double posting
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Last edited by domc on Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2434
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| domc wrote: | | Anyway I've failed in part with this thread as I was hoping to stimulate some semi-official comment from those more in the know on some of the topics/thoughts raised here I wonder what is really in the works. |
These guys are clams, when it comes to trying to get some info out of them. But, trust me, they've heard it with both barrels. I was a lot more vociferous, when I first joined the forum and brought up the sequencer.
The first Sound On Sound OASYS review said that Korg was working on sequencer updates, but that has been hearsay, for a while. I'm hoping that Sharp and Daz are wrong and that more than the Cue List is coming.
| domc wrote: | | I think you owe it to yourself to get a buddy to show you 'session view' |
Uh oh. Is it on a computer? I can't stand to even look at my copy of Sonar. You'll have to put it in the OASYS, before I look at it.  Admittedly, I rarely use patterns or loops or even quantization. I play the keyboard and if I screw up, I simply record it, again. Guess I'm old fashiioned. If I need to get mechanical, there's Step Record.
I do use a computer, a lot - video editing, etc. I've been on it, for 12 hours, so far, today. I'm typing up dialogue texts, for Japan and editing M & E tracks, for Thailand. I'll be here a couple of more hours, before knocking off to bed and doing it again, tomorrow. The last thing I want to do is compose on it! My keyboards are my respite from the desktop. This little icon shows how my eyes are feeling, right now.  |
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Not good news if you follow this thread. Stephen shares a lot of his views about sequencing that don't (to me at least) bode well for a reasonable enhancement with the next OS - I'm sure he would get to see any enhancements months before release.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21550&start=30
I must admit I don't share all of his views (at least for the Oasys) on:
- the screen being too small to ever be realistic competition to a computer with a large screen: as has been shown for all the synth parameters, a series of well designed easily accessable pages may not be quite as good as all on one screen, but it can get pretty close
- too much time and effort already gone into the software for the hardware to catch up: I contend (as mentioned already) that lots of the programming of the software sequencers is superfluous to an Oasys sequencer (score editing, all the new VST instruments, midi implementation, all the effects, the mouse implementation, all the different versions for different operating systems, all the coding for different hardware additions) and that with the implementation of not that many new features, a hardware one could become a lot more useful/ like a software one.
- hardware sequencers being the undergraduate training grounds for the full thing in software: that's unfortunately just because the more sophisticated features (which would have been welcome) are missing
Unfortunately as Stephen's obviously a lot closer to the industry than me, I guess my views are heavily in the minority and unlikely ever to see implementation.
Having moved over from software to hardware in the last 12 months, I guess its a shame to think that to get the best out of hardware you'll need to have a computer connected in the future.
 Domc
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2434
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| domc wrote: | | Not good news if you follow this thread. Stephen shares a lot of his views about sequencing that don't (to me at least) bode well for a reasonable enhancement with the next OS - I'm sure he would get to see any enhancements months before release. |
There was a thread about the 2 or 3 Korg divisions that are responsible for new development. At least one is the Japan division. I think there is an R & D California division and possibly another. Stephen (being his own kind of division) obviously works on KARMA and has asked for sequencer features that better supplement some KARMA functions.
In other words, Stephen is not the sequencer guy and I don't think he is fully aware of (or can permissibly say) anything about new sequencer develoments. (If there are any)
Until a rep posts, "There is no further development" then I can't tell you there isn't. Damn, I hope we don't hear that, for a long while.  |
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Conway wrote: | | domc wrote: | | Not good news if you follow this thread. Stephen shares a lot of his views about sequencing that don't (to me at least) bode well for a reasonable enhancement with the next OS - I'm sure he would get to see any enhancements months before release. |
There was a thread about the 2 or 3 Korg divisions that are responsible for new development. At least one is the Japan division. I think there is an R & D California division and possibly another. Stephen (being his own kind of division) obviously works on KARMA and has asked for sequencer features that better supplement some KARMA functions.
In other words, Stephen is not the sequencer guy and I don't think he is fully aware of (or can permissibly say) anything about new sequencer develoments. (If there are any) |
Not fully aware != dumb.
No, I can't say anything about what may or may not be under development. My posts in those areas have been about my own views on this topic. Along those lines, I don't think you can expect *major* sequencer updates. I believe that any updates to the sequencer in a (relatively) small-screen hardware unit are going to be incremental, at most. I'm not talking about the OASYS specifically. But that's my opinion only.
I do hope they will make some functionality increases in the future. But I also have to agree with Mike. It works, right now, believe it or not! You can make music with it. It's a full-blown sequencer. If it doesn't have all the enhancements of various computer programs, well, no one ever said it would.
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zirkdextron
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 34
Location: Sheffield, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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No-one said the sequencer was useless. It works fine so far as it goes and you don't need to connect to a computer.
My contention is that the sequencer only needs to be a tad better than it is at present to achieve a level of user-friendliness that would mean that no-one would ever be tempted to bother hooking up to a computer.
I say again, the sequencer on the Roland Fantom X-series has gone a long way towards bridging the gap beteween software and hardware. As a workstation the Fantom isn't in the same park as the Oasys but that part of it, at least, is superior in many ways. |
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2434
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | Not fully aware != dumb. |
Oh, come on! I didn't mean it like that.
| zirkdextron wrote: | | I say again, the sequencer on the Roland Fantom X-series has gone a long way towards bridging the gap beteween software and hardware. As a workstation the Fantom isn't in the same park as the Oasys but that part of it, at least, is superior in many ways. |
I do like that Fantom sequencer, but I have gotten used to the one on the O. The Fantom only has one Song slot and not as many of the SYS EX options. The fact that the OASYS can freely move data from one Song to another, allows for some tricks that the Fantom has a hard time with. But, yeah the Fantom's menu options are nice. Much easier to nudge tracks and move notes around.
My last score was realized on Fantom and OASYS sequencers. Here are some unheard MP3s, if you like the soundtrack kind of thing. "Rescue and Breakout" is my fave.
Formula for a cure?
Radiation Chair and illegal experiment
Sneaking Lara out of the base
Headaches, broken waterglass, super strength and speed
Getting shot, bending gun and tipping the van
Dispatching sentries and base Assault
Taking care of some black ops
Rescue and Breakout
Standoff and big battle |
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| StephenKay wrote: |
Not fully aware != dumb.
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That's a (rather British) self-deprecating kind of remark - which I can't possibly believe!
| StephenKay wrote: |
I believe that any updates to the sequencer in a (relatively) small-screen hardware unit are going to be incremental, at most. I'm not talking about the OASYS specifically. But that's my opinion only. |
I'm curious your comments about DP and sonar/the size of the screen. I know you mention that you've used DP and software sequencers since Apple IIe days, and you don't believe hardware ones will ever match software ones, but isn't a part of that because at the moment the workflow, screen displays, features of the current DAWs far exceed the onboard workstation sequencers.
Re screen size, I think I would have agreed with you 6 months ago before buying the Oasys, but I'm less convinced today. Take for example the MS-20EX. Sure it would be nice if all the six pages of synth parameters were on one bigger screen - but having the touch screen and being able to quickly flick between pages makes it almost as good. Does having it on 6 screen rather than 1 slow you down working - without a touchscreen yes - but with a touchscreen I'd contend it's as fast to edit the synth (or faster) than having to use a mouse on a big screen (and much more intuitive to edit a dial with a slider than using a mouse). Likewise all the other synths. Actually I've found that having parameters in set places (rather than in ever-movable windows) that you get to with a push of finger, gets me to that place much quicker than having to use a mouse. Now I think that the same principle is equally applicable to a good sequencer design on the Oasys. I'd be mad to say that a 24' screen is not going to look better and make it slightly easier to see lots of parameters/tracks at once - but with a slightly better design and with some new pages, where all of those same things could be seen at the touch of one finger, conceptually (to me at least) an Oasys seq could be pretty damn close to the larger screen. [And not having to use a mouse could potentially speed things up].
| StephenKay wrote: |
I do hope they will make some functionality increases in the future. But I also have to agree with Mike. It works, right now, believe it or not! You can make music with it. It's a full-blown sequencer. |
Don't get me wrong, I use it regularly (despite having cubase 4 and live 6) and like it. It's rock solid and I've got some good tunes now transferred from the computer onto the Oasys. But in concept it could be so much better in ease of use, displays, workflow, with not that many key additions [Edit - similar to what I think zirkdexton has said in the meantime]. Hence I'm battling my case as hard as possible before the new OS is released in (the vain) hope that the powers that be are watching and maybe listening!
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thekeymaster
Senior Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 367
Location: Stoke-On-Trent,England
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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| zirkdextron wrote: |
I say again, the sequencer on the Roland Fantom X-series has gone a long way towards bridging the gap beteween software and hardware. As a workstation the Fantom isn't in the same park as the Oasys but that part of it, at least, is superior in many ways. |
Yep I have to agree with that statement and Mike you are spot on in regard to the Fantoms menu structure and editing of note data,I find the Fantoms system very fluid.The one song limit Ive never had a problem with and the audio track implementation on the Fantom is really where the OASYS should be,I cant knock Roland when it comes to the way they have incorporated this into the system.
The OASYS sequencer does work,it does the job, I think we all know this.My problem with the whole philosophy is the term work.Having something which is tried and tested is fine but attempting to move the workstation seq forward is where I think Korg missed out big time.
Now dont get me wrong I'm not saying that the OASYS seq is a pointless waste of time,its not at all and has some nice features to it but the Fantom X is a good example of Roland taking a tried and tested formula and making it better and implementing it better than they have before on any of their other workstations.I think this what Korg should have done when they released the OASYS,used the foundations of their seq but enhance it as much as possible utilising the screen real estate.
I dont think any OASYS user expects a DAW style seq in the OASYS but I think they do wish to see some significant enhancements to some aspects of its operation.The Fantom on its audio tracks is pretty close to an arrange window on a workstation,I see no reason why Korg cant do something similar on the OASYS,the screen cries out for it.
Make the FFW and REW buttons work when the seq is'nt playing.
Include maybe some more locate points or even allow us to assign the pads in seq mode(this is just for editing mind you) to be the locate buttons.Eight pads,eight locate points.I could go on and on.....but there are many things that could improve workflow.
As of now the M3,on paper, has a better seq in it than the OASYS.Taking away the audio recording the M3 has all the midi features of the OASYS,a higher 480 ppq (which I think should be bare minimum today) and it has the cue list feature.
My take on the situation is this.The OASYS is a flagship instrument and in that regard ALL features should cry out "I am the best".The OASYS surpasses every other workstation manufacturer when it comes to its sound engines ..... Korg must be very proud of this and rightly so but as Sharp as already stated their 'achilles heel' is the seq.I'm sure someone at Korg has'nt sat down and thought...."Right people its time we gave the seq package in our workstations a bit of an update,we have the perfect vehicle to do it with in the OASYS Its software based,has a decent sized screen and would complement the already outstanding feature set".
Its funny but since Ive joined the OASYS forum community this is the ONLY aspect of the OASYS that keeps cropping up from nearly all the owners.If it were the HD-1 sound engine giving this much debate I'm sure Korg would have done something about it by now or at least taken the comments on board and try and improve it.Food for thought.
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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| thekeymaster wrote: |
Make the FFW and REW buttons work when the seq is'nt playing.
Include maybe some more locate points or even allow us to assign the pads in seq mode(this is just for editing mind you) to be the locate buttons.Eight pads,eight locate points.I could go on and on.....but there are many things that could improve workflow.
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In terms of what should be two (easy) things to implement I'm with you here. I've mentioned the FF and REW buttons before and had a slightly different idea on the locate points - but it's the same concept. I never heard back on the suggestion below as to whether different colours were possible, but even if they weren't, you could still use the bank select buttons as locate points as they are not used in the track edit mode leaving the drum pads free for performance.
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19267&highlight=
Kind rgds, Domc
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domc
Full Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 137
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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Removed double posting
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Last edited by domc on Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thekeymaster
Senior Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 367
Location: Stoke-On-Trent,England
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Yep Domc you're suggestion is a good one....navigation would be made so much quicker with these little short cuts implemented.
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Daz
Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 10829
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Sequencer upgrade - session view useful? |
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| domc wrote: | | ... you could still use the bank select buttons as locate points as they are not used in the track edit mode |
I just re-read your original post about this and I think it's a great idea. If it was possible to quantize the jump to the next locator position to the next beat or bar that would be useful too.
I never expected a radical re-working of the sequencer, just these kinds of improvements. Plus some polishing of existing things like all the screens that ask if you want to copy item 17 to item 59 ... but don't show the names of items of 17 and 59 that you diligently entered as an aid memoire. That was somewhat more understable on the smaller screen of the Trinity or Triton but on the Oasys it is an unneccessary economy IMO.
I was doing something the other day where the sequencer made me laugh. I prerecorded some Karma scene changes (sysex messages) at the appropriate locations in the sequencer and then in overdub mode I recorded myself triggering the Karma. Very useful 'cos then I didn't need to perform the scene change during the recording. After doing that I then wanted to remove the scene change messages from the data. Slight problem ... how on earth are you supposed to identify them in amongst any other system exclusive messages that got recorded in the meantime, they all just have the F0AD icon and no other informaton. LOL ... d'oh !  Sysex recording was only recently added too, so it's not an old legacy feature. The solution in the end was just to use a separate MIDI track for the sysex "stabilizers", a track that didn't have a timbre or GE assigned so didn't need to be part of the Multi-Rec recording process. My fault as much as anything else.
Daz. |
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