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Dany
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 352
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 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: Re: How to remove GM programs from the program list? |
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| jroujinsky wrote: | | By default, progam list contains a long list of General MIDI programs that makes it harder to navigate... |
There was exactly the same ongoing issue withe the OASYS since 2005, just read all the posts in the OASYS forum archive concerning this issue. The long GM Sound list and its idiotic and EVEN LONGER extended list of useless GM sound variations, which is at the end of the "internal" bank sound list and where you are forced to scroll through them, before it's even possible to reach the user banks, is a constant annoyance, which completely destroys THE WORKFLOW !!!
This is so annoying, that users are complaining about for years. I guess that the developers of KORG US, who are (I hope I remember correctly) mainly responsible for the development of the outstanding Synth engines and effects, are in a way the victims of KORG INC JAPAN, who are mainly responsible for the outdated user structure and the general inflexibility with the separated modis and the complicated file and data handling (not to mention the 1980's sequencer with of course great 24bit sound quality and good MIDI resolution; but what does it help, if the rest of the Seq is still unusable.. ). Some japanese guys at KORG INC JAPAN are probably so ignorant and self-satisfied, that they are convinced, that their "great" user structure from the 80's is still the best on the world, blind to reality.
I am still dreaming of an instrument, with the oustanding and unmatched 9 Synth engines of KRONOS, BUT with full access to ALL Program parameters in Combi and Seq mode. A better Seq, no GM sound list, access to Wav-Seq and Drumset programming in every mode and note just in Global mode. The same for effect-send for drum sounds, which also is only accessible in Global mode (I guess only the Drumtrack fortunately differs from that).
OK I have two OASYS-88, which I will never sell (and a lot of other stuff), but I would probably buy a KRONOS (or even two), if those annoying issues that OASYS users are complaining about for years (as KRONOS users are beginning to complain now) would have been finally resolved with the release of KRONOS. Those issues are so obvious, that I cannot understand the really self-destructive philosophy and complete ignorance of todays reality by KORG INC JAPAN. So let's hope for a KRONOS update due to the pressure from KORG US! ( I have of course already burried all hopes for an OASYS update a long time ago...)
And what about cleaning up the (pseudo) "ROM" and RAM? Who needs EXACTLY the same brass, drum and piano samples, in 2 to 4 different quality levels. We just want the best ones. For example on the OASYS combis, I had to replace all the drumsets from "ROM", with the drumsets from EXs. They are exactly the same, using the same samples and given the same name, but in a much better audio quality. So who on earth wants to use those "ROM" Drumsets, which are available at the same time in a much better quality in EXs? It's the same issue with a lot of other sounds like Brass and Piano. So the RAM, and so-called ROM is full with repeated exactly identical samples but just in different quality levels, which is a complete waste of RAM space. Don' forget, that apart from the new Sample Expansions for KRONOS, OASYS shares ALL the sample data from KRONOS! So please, clean it up KORG!
But despite all my criticism:
I am so thankful to KORG for the OASYS and KRONOS technology. KORG owns the future with the new SSD streaming technology in KRONOS. They can offer for example string samples ŕ la VSL, etc.,etc. in the future and finally even crush the software market (NI-Kontakt, etc.) and they have already crushed the hardware market! They offer the best sound, the best musicality and expressiveness and the deepest synth engines, available on the market, in one fine hardware instrument. But why does KORG INC JAPAN destroy themselves, respectively destroy KORG US, with the mentioned issues above?
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:46 am Post subject: Re: How to remove GM programs from the program list? |
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| Dany wrote: | | And what about cleaning up the (pseudo) "ROM" and RAM? Who needs EXACTLY the same brass, drum and piano samples, in 2 to 4 different quality levels. We just want the best ones. For example on the OASYS combis, I had to replace all the drumsets from "ROM", with the drumsets from EXs. They are exactly the same, using the same samples and given the same name, but in a much better audio quality. So who on earth wants to use those "ROM" Drumsets, which are available at the same time in a much better quality in EXs? It's the same issue with a lot of other sounds like Brass and Piano. So the RAM, and so-called ROM is full with repeated exactly identical samples but just in different quality levels, which is a complete waste of RAM space. Don' forget, that apart from the new Sample Expansions for KRONOS, OASYS shares ALL the sample data from KRONOS! So please, clean it up KORG! |
You are a bit mistaken with your information on this. All of the samples are the same quality level. (48k 16bit). The difference is that many of the drum sounds are available in stereo versions, vs mono versions. The ROM drumkits used the mono samples, and the EXs3 kits used the stereo samples. Yes, the stereo versions "sound better" because there's more space in them - they may also be less truncated. Secondly, the stereo waveforms obviously take up at least twice the amount of RAM; hence, they were not in the ROM in the OASYS.
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Dany
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 352
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:06 am Post subject: Re: How to remove GM programs from the program list? |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | Dany wrote: | | And what about cleaning up the (pseudo) "ROM" and RAM? Who needs EXACTLY the same brass, drum and piano samples, in 2 to 4 different quality levels. We just want the best ones. For example on the OASYS combis, I had to replace all the drumsets from "ROM", with the drumsets from EXs. They are exactly the same, using the same samples and given the same name, but in a much better audio quality. So who on earth wants to use those "ROM" Drumsets, which are available at the same time in a much better quality in EXs? It's the same issue with a lot of other sounds like Brass and Piano. So the RAM, and so-called ROM is full with repeated exactly identical samples but just in different quality levels, which is a complete waste of RAM space. Don' forget, that apart from the new Sample Expansions for KRONOS, OASYS shares ALL the sample data from KRONOS! So please, clean it up KORG! |
You are a bit mistaken with your information on this. All of the samples are the same quality level. (48k 16bit). The difference is that many of the drum sounds are available in stereo versions, vs mono versions. The ROM drumkits used the mono samples, and the EXs3 kits used the stereo samples. Yes, the stereo versions "sound better" because there's more space in them - they may also be less truncated. Secondly, the stereo waveforms obviously take up at least twice the amount of RAM; hence, they were not in the ROM in the OASYS. |
Hi Stephen
Thanks for the clarification regarding the drum samples! Of course the stereo samples are using more voices, so it makes sense to have them in mono as well. But I didn't mean of course the resolution of the samples by talking about different "quality levels". I've just expressed myself in quite clumsy english... Take the different pianos, which are identical, but in case of EXs2 are using a higher number, longer and more detailed samples, which for me makes the other pianos obsolete. It is quite the same with some sounds from the Brass EXs3 compared to the other Brass sounds. I think there is too much duplication and waste of RAM space, which still could be tightened.
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Gargamel314
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1147
Location: Carneys Point, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Brandon Daniel wrote: | | Another possible solution would be to not show all of the variations of all the GM programs, only one per variation, as this is the primary cause of clogging up the category browse list, right? |
YES(emphatically)! That would be perfect! and make the most sense too!
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Korg Kronos-61, 01/Wfd, SONAR Pro |
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Gargamel314
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1147
Location: Carneys Point, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: Re: How to remove GM programs from the program list? |
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| Quote: | Hi Stephen
Thanks for the clarification regarding the drum samples! Of course the stereo samples are using more voices, so it makes sense to have them in mono as well. But I didn't mean of course the resolution of the samples by talking about different "quality levels". I've just expressed myself in quite clumsy english... Take the different pianos, which are identical, but in case of EXs2 are using a higher number, longer and more detailed samples, which for me makes the other pianos obsolete. It is quite the same with some sounds from the Brass EXs3 compared to the other Brass sounds. I think there is too much duplication and waste of RAM space, which still could be tightened.
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What you're proposing would eliminate some of the smaller samples, which do have their purpose.
For example, for the sake of RAM space or loading time, you might choose NOT to load the EXs2 or EXs3 expansions. Even though you didn't load EXs3, you STILL have brass sounds that you can play with. Also, there are programs that might use ROM brass sounds and layer them on top of EXs3 brass sounds. Having ALL of them gives you a lot of variety to choose from too. The clarinet sound in EXs3 is nice for jazz, but you would want to use the ROM version in a classical setting. Though there are a million different pianos on the Kronos, I really don't see the point in making the sample ROM/RAM content smaller. At least you have the option of not loading the sample library you don't want, and it's nice to have a good set of options. I personally love the fact that you can choose from seven different pianos on the Kronos... even you may never use the original OASYS's piano. There's only 1 that gets loaded with ROM.
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Korg Kronos-61, 01/Wfd, SONAR Pro |
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Mystic38
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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there is an awful lot a ranting going on over a seemingly trivial item here..but given human nature is to complain then i assume the Kronos is otherwise flawless!..
I will confess that perhaps i am just not as sensitised as some of you folks. The Fantom sorts patches by USER, PRESET, GM which to me is the most logical, and S70XS/Motif it is PRESET, USER, GM.. but regardless..
1. the assumption that all GM sounds are useless is not a good assumption. Korg does not include a cheesy $3 soundblaster synth chip to make the GM sounds...they are decent patches in their own right.
2. Way more than #1 above, in ANY category i look at..there are at least 50% of the patches that i do not care for, so why pick on the 5 or 6 GM patches within a category?....
if you have an ability for direct entry, alphanumeric search, and favourites then surely there are better things you would like Korg to focus on?
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Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string... |
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Gargamel314
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1147
Location: Carneys Point, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mystic38 wrote: | there is an awful lot a ranting going on over a seemingly trivial item here..but given human nature is to complain then i assume the Kronos is otherwise flawless!..
I will confess that perhaps i am just not as sensitised as some of you folks. The Fantom sorts patches by USER, PRESET, GM which to me is the most logical, and S70XS/Motif it is PRESET, USER, GM.. but regardless..
1. the assumption that all GM sounds are useless is not a good assumption. Korg does not include a cheesy $3 soundblaster synth chip to make the GM sounds...they are decent patches in their own right.
2. Way more than #1 above, in ANY category i look at..there are at least 50% of the patches that i do not care for, so why pick on the 5 or 6 GM patches within a category?....
if you have an ability for direct entry, alphanumeric search, and favourites then surely there are better things you would like Korg to focus on? |
The GM patches are fine for GM patches. But when you have 9 copies of them, and you're searching for a program, you have to page through like 80 patches, all the same sounds, over and over again,
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (1)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (2)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (3)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (4)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (5)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (6)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (7)
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all the same sounds, over and over again, ( 8 )
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all the same sounds, over and over again, (9) it does get pretty annoying.
Sorry for the illustration there, but this is pretty much what I used to go through with the Triton EVERY TIME I opened category view. As was suggested before... It would be TOTALLY different if there was just the MAIN version of the sound searchable in Category view... and maybe the SFX variations (that are ACTUALLY different). It's just pointless to have exact duplicates in Category view. Or at least do what they actually DID do with the M3 - put all the GM programs at the end of the list. No one's picking on GM sounds here... we're picking on category view!
EDIT: i numbered all the variations.
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Korg Kronos-61, 01/Wfd, SONAR Pro
Last edited by Gargamel314 on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Most of the sounds in the G(1)-G(9) banks are equal so they could indeed at least left out all the 'copies'. So that means for some SFX there would be 9 items (G(1)XXX - G(9)XXX and for most only 1 item). That would save upto 128 * 8 minus all the doubles.
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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Dany
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 352
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: How to remove GM programs from the program list? |
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| Gargamel314 wrote: | | Quote: | Hi Stephen
Thanks for the clarification regarding the drum samples! Of course the stereo samples are using more voices, so it makes sense to have them in mono as well. But I didn't mean of course the resolution of the samples by talking about different "quality levels". I've just expressed myself in quite clumsy english... Take the different pianos, which are identical, but in case of EXs2 are using a higher number, longer and more detailed samples, which for me makes the other pianos obsolete. It is quite the same with some sounds from the Brass EXs3 compared to the other Brass sounds. I think there is too much duplication and waste of RAM space, which still could be tightened.
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What you're proposing would eliminate some of the smaller samples, which do have their purpose.
For example, for the sake of RAM space or loading time, you might choose NOT to load the EXs2 or EXs3 expansions. Even though you didn't load EXs3, you STILL have brass sounds that you can play with. Also, there are programs that might use ROM brass sounds and layer them on top of EXs3 brass sounds. Having ALL of them gives you a lot of variety to choose from too. The clarinet sound in EXs3 is nice for jazz, but you would want to use the ROM version in a classical setting. Though there are a million different pianos on the Kronos, I really don't see the point in making the sample ROM/RAM content smaller. At least you have the option of not loading the sample library you don't want, and it's nice to have a good set of options. I personally love the fact that you can choose from seven different pianos on the Kronos... even you may never use the original OASYS's piano. There's only 1 that gets loaded with ROM.
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Yes, I have to admit that you are absolutely right and those are valid points. It is obvious that future developments will enable KORG to use larger RAM and RAM space won't be any issue anymore, so that it will be possible to load ALL the EXs at the same time!
But my other points of my previous post in this thread are more important to me, which concern the general user structure, which could be improved by getting rid of some annoyances like the GM sound list with all its variations...
It should be easy to implement an option, which enables the user to choose in Global mode, if the GM sound list should be displayed or not...
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Mystic38
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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@gargamel314..
lol..
you eloquently made the point... thanks..
i didnt realise you had GM:synth Brass ..in versions #1-#127
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Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string... |
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Brandon Daniel
QA Specialist, Korg R&D
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 103
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gargamel314 wrote: | | Brandon Daniel wrote: | | Another possible solution would be to not show all of the variations of all the GM programs, only one per variation, as this is the primary cause of clogging up the category browse list, right? |
YES(emphatically)! That would be perfect! and make the most sense too! |
Noted, thanks.
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jg::
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Regardless of whether the duplications are removed or not, I still like the M3 solution, of moving the GM programs to the end of the list. This might be even simpler, and certainly better for the "never-a-GM-sound" crowd!
jg:: |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| jg:: wrote: | Regardless of whether the duplications are removed or not, I still like the M3 solution, of moving the GM programs to the end of the list. This might be even simpler, and certainly better for the "never-a-GM-sound" crowd!
jg:: |
This would also be a satisfying solution for me too. Or putting a (soft) button on the screen to show/hide them.
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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jg::
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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The problem with the soft button is that, for us "use-a-GM-program-if-it-fits" people, we would still have to put up with the multiple duplications in the middle of the list, interrupting the workflow. Placing GM sounds at the very end of the list would negate the need for a soft button, and also remove much of the annoyance of the duplications. Although removing the duplications would be nice, too. 
jg:: |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Maybe do it both:
- Initially show or hide GM programs (or make it an option in the Global part)
- Use a soft button to show/hide the GM programs at the end
I guess duplicate GM programs can always be hidden since it has no added value at all.
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