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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
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Location: Hawaii
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Basically I agree with you. The only point I have is that (some) people under-estimate how much work is involved in making a cross-platform editor. That's all.
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mathieumaes
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Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | | Basically I agree with you. The only point I have is that (some) people under-estimate how much work is involved in making a cross-platform editor. That's all. |
I actually think you overestimate the work they did on the editor. Sound Quest is a company that has developped editors for all kinds of hardware, and they have their "premium" version which covers all of them.
I bet they created some kind of framework that has lots of code which they can reuse. Implementation of MIDI, device management, maybe even a cross-platform GUI interface (which they didn't update since 1996  )
I have mixed feelings about this choice. On one hand, sound quest seems to carry a lot of experience.
On the other hand, Korg could've probably done a much better job being the manufacturer and designer of the hardware.
If I compare the Kronos editor with the Roland AX Synth editor, it looks much more professional and userfriendly to me. Also, it doesn't advertise a "full version" in the menu. That bothers me quite a lot in the Kronos editor...
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aron
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: |
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>I actually think you overestimate the work they did on the editor. Sound Quest is a company that has developped editors for all kinds of hardware, and they have their "premium" version which covers all of them.
Possibly. I admit to not having written an editor for a long time now. Yes, of course the framework is there, but if it wasn't designed to handle something like the Kronos, then there can be a lot of work involved.
My point of reference is something like Galaxy's Wavestation and K2000 editor - both which required a LOT of work despite having a full "framework" for support.
I guess since I used to write editors and librarians for a living, I tend to side with the developers. I am definitely biased, I admit.
I do think that people tend to over-simplify how time consuming writing an editor can be. Especially when you are dealing with a changing OS and possibly bugs, thats all.
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
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Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | >
I do think that people tend to over-simplify how time consuming writing an editor can be. Especially when you are dealing with a changing OS and possibly bugs, thats all. |
I agree too ...PCG Tools which only supports about 20 parameters took me about 9 months so far to write, so you can imagine how long it would take to make a full fledged editor including VST support.
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Davidb
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 1592
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Lougheed wrote: | | Davidb wrote: |
The M3 editor is, IMHO the point where Korg had to start with, and it seemed not the case. |
Same thing can be said about the sequencer. The M3 sequencer is the point where Korg needed to start. However, the Kronos is indeed a repackaged OASYS . . . |
Yes.
True as well, Lough.
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Ojustaboo
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Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 1154
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: | | aron wrote: | >
I do think that people tend to over-simplify how time consuming writing an editor can be. Especially when you are dealing with a changing OS and possibly bugs, thats all. |
I agree too ...PCG Tools which only supports about 20 parameters took me about 9 months so far to write, so you can imagine how long it would take to make a full fledged editor including VST support. |
True, but they would have a team working on it |
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michelkeijzers
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ojustaboo wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: | | aron wrote: | >
I do think that people tend to over-simplify how time consuming writing an editor can be. Especially when you are dealing with a changing OS and possibly bugs, thats all. |
I agree too ...PCG Tools which only supports about 20 parameters took me about 9 months so far to write, so you can imagine how long it would take to make a full fledged editor including VST support. |
True, but they would have a team working on it |
Well I think they let SoundQuest made it. But yes, they probably put a team on it (together with support from Korg).
It is also unknown if Korg has initially also the idea to let SoundQuest create the editor. Due to the tsunami a lot of productive hours were lost so maybe they intended to create it themselves but let another company do it to relieve some stress.
However, outsourcing doe not mean it will perse going faster, because as written before by others, SoundQuest needs to understand the Kronos system which is far more difficult than most other synthesizers.
About the time needed, hard to say. They have (hopefully) a lot of of-the-shelf components/libraries, but even then, the Kronos is far more difficult and has many more parameters than most other synths. Also there are some dedicated UI widgets and the amount of data also is bigger, as are the amount of different type of messages (if MIDI is used).
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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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> True, but they would have a team working on it
When Opcode was writing editors - I was the team leader at one point, but each editor was written by one person. The program itself was managed and had a team, but each editor and librarian was done by one person.
The Wavestation and K2000 editor might have taken 6 months each, the SY77 including program conversions might have been around 4 months. It's been a long while, but it's easy to imagine it might take about 8 months assuming nothing went wrong. Then there is the matter of the OS being expanded.
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RonF
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Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool aron! Great story and not surprised at all that this is in your background.
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michelkeijzers
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | > True, but they would have a team working on it
When Opcode was writing editors - I was the team leader at one point, but each editor was written by one person. The program itself was managed and had a team, but each editor and librarian was done by one person.
The Wavestation and K2000 editor might have taken 6 months each, the SY77 including program conversions might have been around 4 months. It's been a long while, but it's easy to imagine it might take about 8 months assuming nothing went wrong. Then there is the matter of the OS being expanded. |
Cool story indeed ... the only piece of software I made in a professional environment was some parts of the SACD converter from Philips and the plugin for ProTools (partly).
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Cpilot
Senior Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2011
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I feel like boasting a little. Back in 1965 I wrote a music compiler for a mainframe. You punched up your paper tape using four characters to describe each note (a bit like midi), the compiler read it in and the computer played the tune. The computer didn't have a speaker, but since the cycle time was only 150 kHz, you could tune in the processor on an AM radio. Those were the days - steam computing!
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Sparker
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Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 483
Location: Wales UK
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Great stuff Cpilot
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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You were ahead of your time!
The first music language I really got into was MASC @ San Jose State University. It was written in FORTH and was cool. But then I wrote the Turbo MIDI Toolkit - hoping to change the world
I still remember someone from Keyboard Magazine asking me if there was a market and I told him - yeah everyone wants to write their own MIDI sequencer! hahahahaha
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JimH
Full Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Posts: 179
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | | MLAN was a terrible fiasco. What a joke! |
I understand that some people had trouble getting it to work. But it works great for me. Anyway, the point is not to argue about mLAN specifically; I just think we should be farther along than we are in some ways. Consider:
- With mLAN I can connect both my S90ES digitally (16 channels) and i88X (8 channels) at the same time in my DAW and everything's synced. But with keyboards that send digital audio over USB for example, you cannot connect your favorite ASIO audio interface from a different company at the same time.
- Reduce cabling by sending everything over one cable digitally. Chain devices to reduce it more. How about a network for instrument/audio devices?
- Perhaps on that chain also put amp/speakers that take the same type of digital input. Instrument signals could be routed to your computer, mixer, or directly to the amp/speaker, without ever repatching physical cables.
Isn't there any vision in the area of connections and protocols between instruments and audio devices? It's as if mLAN was proof it couldn't be done rather than proof that it could.
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aron
Platinum Member
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Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Maybe Thunderbolt could do it?
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