Harmonic distortion after OS 1.2.1 upgrade

[Daz]

I have to say on my first listen, it doesn't sound very different here ... I'll try playing it through my monitors after work for a closer listen. I am going to post a wav with the variants in the same file for people to check out if thats okay.

Daz.

[StephenKay]

To be honest, at first listen, I don't hear any difference.

Were these played by the same exact sequence of MIDI notes? Or just played manually? I suspect manually, because the timing and MIDI velocities seem different.

I would suggest being more scientific about it if you really want to prove there's a difference.

Record a sequence of notes to a song, save the song, use it to demonstrate the sound. If the exact same sequence is used, we can discount any timing and MIDI velocity differences, and then the resulting .WAVs could be opened in a waveform editing program, and compared that way, in a more scientific, less subjective manner.

[Daz]

I've suggested to E that he record the analog out of the Oasys back into it's analog input as these resampled recordings are apparently not representatives of the changes he is hearing.

Daz.

[elvisjohndowson]

Try just listening to the first C3 note and audition it quickly back and forth using the play command on the OASYS. I notice a slight ambient effect being applied for the OS 1.2.1 version and it's less for the OS 1.1.0 version. Admittedly, the difference is not very easily perceptible in the WAV file recordings, but I could definitely detect it when playing back this program as well as the following combis between the two OS versions:
A032 Monster Power Synth
B057 Feel the Rush
B068 Dust Storm on Mars

It is definitely something that becomes more apparent as you use more voices during playback. For example, try playing back B068 Dust Storm on Mars on OS 1.1.0 and OS 1.2.1. What I've notices is that OS 1.2.1 sound muddy and loses audio definition / separation for the individual parts/sound components. It sort of gets merged and sounds muddy, whereas OS 1.1.0 maintains clear definition and separation and does not get muddy or mixed up when playing the following progression
chord notes / progression steps
-> C5, E5
-> B4, D5
-> A4, C5
-> B4, D5
-> C5, E5

-> A2, C5, E5
-> A2, B4, D5
-> A2, A4, C5
-> A2, B4, D5
-> A2, C5, E5

etc.

Elvis Dowson

[RC-IA]

i must i agree with elvis. when you play bass sounds and drums that's really noticiable, as if there was more reverb, bad quality.

[elvisjohndowson]

Oh finally, thank you. Now I know I'm not crazy!! Whew !!

Elvis Dowson

[StephenKay]

It is definitely something that becomes more apparent as you use more voices during playback. For example, try playing back B068 Dust Storm on Mars on OS 1.1.0 and OS 1.2.1. What I've notices is that OS 1.2.1 sound muddy and loses audio definition / separation for the individual parts/sound components. It sort of gets merged and sounds muddy, whereas OS 1.1.0 maintains clear definition and separation and does not get muddy or mixed up when playing the following progression
chord notes / progression steps

Unfortunately, this is all very subjective and non-scientific.

I'm not able to switch back and forth between 1.1 and 1.2. Are you actually reloading the OS back and forth, and reformatting your drive in between or something? If one had two machines side by side, that would be a different story.

I've never noticed a difference, the OASYS sounds the same to me as always, so there's going to have to be some more scientifically-produced audio examples to be analyzed if you really believe this. You need the exact same sequence of test notes as a first step. Even a slight variation in the velocity of a note could cause it to exhibit more "ambience", depending on the effect settings.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be a problem, or even a problem that only affects certain machines, but so far, I don't hear it.

[thekeymaster]

Ive gotta agree with Stephen on this one....was the sequence an exact copy??

There sounds slight variation in velocity to me from the two audio clips.

Sorry you're having to go through all this but thats what I'm hearing.I'm listening on my Powerbook with a pair of Sennheiser HD25 headphones on,at quite a loud volume and the difference to me seems in the phrase not the sound.

[RC-IA]

i can't hear any difference between the 2 waves from elvis too, but i can hear difference at home

[elvisjohndowson]

Unfortunately, this is all very subjective and non-scientific.

I'm not able to switch back and forth between 1.1 and 1.2. Are you actually reloading the OS back and forth, and reformatting your drive in between or something? If one had two machines side by side, that would be a different story.

I've never noticed a difference, the OASYS sounds the same to me as always, so there's going to have to be some more scientifically-produced audio examples to be analyzed if you really believe this. You need the exact same sequence of test notes as a first step. Even a slight variation in the velocity of a note could cause it to exhibit more "ambience", depending on the effect settings.

Hi Stephen,
Yes, I've switched once from OS 1.2.1 back to OS 1.1.0. To me the difference was readily apparent. You know that some law of conservation applies to the obtaining increased polyphony, right? Finite compute resources, increasing polyphony, reduction in accuracy/resolution of the processing or something like that. I mean if you gain something, you will definitely have to lose something. Again, this is pure speculation. I don't have the hardware with me to conduct scientific tests. Korg R&D labs would be better equipped to handle this.

Anyway, I'm completely unhappy with Korg's internal quality processes with respect to the system software and how they test it internally. Remember, I've managed to inadvertently crash it a few times and have reported those bugs also. Now here is a difference in percieved sound quality by three users, so far, within one day of the release of the OS 1.2.1 upgrade. I think the statement that they have increased polyphony without sacrificing anything (including sound quality) is a bogus statement so far, in my opinion, because the law of conservation of computing power or something like that would still hold and apply to this situation. You gain something, you will definitely lose something, unless that %bandwith was pre-allocated or reserved for the target processor from the begining like one does for most real-time systems and they chose to either optimize the code or take the extra available bandwidth. I don't know.

In any case, this whole experience has left me losing faith in Korg's ability to maintain its quality levels for future upgrades. Thank God I didnt go out and pay for the LAC-1 upgrade. It sound pretty good, but I would have kicked me self if I paid for it and decided to stay with OS 1.1.0 as I am doing right now. I like the original sound characted of OS 1.1.0 and don't want the increased polyphony at the expense of sound quality.

Elvis Dowson

[elvisjohndowson]

Ive gotta agree with Stephen on this one....was the sequence an exact copy??

There sounds slight variation in velocity to me from the two audio clips.

Sorry you're having to go through all this but thats what I'm hearing.I'm listening on my Powerbook with a pair of Sennheiser HD25 headphones on,at quite a loud volume and the difference to me seems in the phrase not the sound.

The two sequences are manually played. I think it's safe to conclude that the difference is not easily discernible by listening to the wave files but quite so when you playback those combis and programs live on the keyboard.

Elvis Dowson

[sebbytriton]

.......You know that some law of conservation applies to the obtaining increased polyphony, right? Finite compute resources, increasing polyphony, reduction in accuracy/resolution of the processing or something like that.......
You gain something, you will definitely lose something...

I'm not agree with that. Optimization of code can be often a reason be have better performance without degrad something else.
Improvement in effect/oscillator computation can "free" ressources that are available to provide more polyphony.

[StephenKay]

I think it's safe to conclude that the difference is not easily discernible by listening to the wave files but quite so when you playback those combis and programs live on the keyboard.

I don't think it's safe to conclude anything from this discussion, other than you think you hear a difference, and so does another person. However, if someone tells you "I swear this sounds different, don't you think so too?", and you have no way to actually listen to the previous version side by side, the mind can play tricks where you imagine it somehow sounds different.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't heard it or seen evidence of it yet.

It's one thing to get down on Korg's case for "bad testing and quality control" and all of your other posts about "systems testing and the proper way to do it" etc., and then to submit a completely unscientific comparison...

[domc]

Elvis - this may not be true for your problem - but I thought a drum patch that I had created sounded much worse earlier this evening, and then I realised I was auditioning it from Global, having switched from one of the LAC bass sounds - hence the effects were all mixed up.
Once I'd switched back to the trance kit program and auditioned it again it sounded normal. This is an easy mistake to make especially with drum kits.

[master logic]

i personally can hear a difference using 2 different pairs of headphone. Not so apparent with AKG k171 but quite obvious with my Sennheiser HD 25-1. Reverb detail, level & generally the overall ambiance sounds better / clearer with V 1.1.1

It's mainly within the 1st bar i can hear it. I'm quite obsessive when it comes to detailed listening, so i definately feel that somethings going on.