Oasys Wishlist

[MIDIguru]

Please put the Triton Arpeggiator into the Oasys.

This would make up for the lack of a piano roll editor and also allow user created arp patterns. Allow the patterns to be any time signature and to have a length of up to 16 bars. Allow the scene buttons or drum pads to switch arp patterns on the fly. Allow sequencer tracks to be imported into the arpeggiator and allow arp patterns to be imported into the sequencer.

Surely this would be the easiest way to give us what we need in the sequencer!

[Daz]

Lots of great ideas there Dom

I agree with both of you re: the arp from the Triton ... it has it's place even when we have Karma. It would be good to have 4 arps in combi/seq rather than just the two of the Triton. It would be also be able to switch the arp pattern for a particular arp instance when changing karma scenes. This marries up with the oft requested wish of being to include non-Karma stuff in scenes.

Daz.

[StephenKay]

OK HERE GOES: LAST EFFORT BY ME TO GET THINGS FOR OS 2.0

Thanks for all the suggestions and summaries. I'm not going to discuss each point, many of them are good ideas and it all comes down to how hard to do, and what else is being prepared. But let me just respond to a few things (in my particular area of responsibility):

SECONDARY GENERAL REQUESTS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE HARD TO IMPLEMENT
15) Simple arpeggiator for tracks without Karma.

KARMA will do, and can do, any kind of "simple arpeggiation task" you can image. I can only suspect that some people who say this don't understand how to use it to do so. But it's really quite simple. I once wrote a tutorial for the Karma Workstation (KARMA v1) called "using KARMA as a simple arpeggiator." I'll see if I can update that for the OASYS. But basically, if you select one of the first 24 or so GEs (that all have the name "Arp Model"), they do simple arpeggiator stuff like most arpeggiators, albeit with a few more options.

F) KARMA - SUGGESTIONS FOR OS 2.0
1) Integration of Karma software to enable user editable functions. We understand this is coming

Yes, I can safely say it is.

2) Ability to quantise Karma start / stop

Not sure what you mean by this. What *I want* and have suggested already is the ability to quantize scene changes to the next bar, as an option.

3) Ability to change other settings as well (eg tone adjust and mixer settings) in each of the scene changes. Prob quite difficult to implement.

I agree this would be nice, but it would be a fairly radical change. I think it would be nice if you could at least have timbre volumes in each scene.

4) Routing midi tracks to Karma

I've begged to do this for years, even since Karma Workstation and KARMA 1, and recently as well. But it's a sequencer issue. It seems you should not have to use an external sequencer to accomplish this.

5) See RTC model in GE browser

It's been discussed, and I'm going to drop another reminder right now.

6) I'd like to see for individual Karma modules which RTP parameters are changing when you move a slider (eg that when you moved slider 4 it would tell you that the RTP velocity scale was moving from 0 to 212); this would be especially useful to see on the Play/Karme GE and the Play/Control Surface/Karma pages.

Don't quite understand this one - are you aware of the "KARMA Values" display on the Control Surface and KARMA RTC Pages? Or are you saying you want to see the names (presently you can see which parameter (number), and the actual value i.e. 0 to 212). I personally don't think there's room to show the names... Epecially since some sliders or switches have more than one parameter attached.

7) Easy way of transferring Karma sequence to patterns without having to play whole section (eg select 4 bars, hold down a few keys on keyboard, hit touchsceen or specific key combination and a new pattern is created representing the output of Karma had those keys been held down for 4 bars). This should be done without having to record to sequence, get from sequence etc.

I like that idea, maybe difficult to implement...I'll have to think about it. I've wanted to do something like that in my software, so if I figure it out, likely it might be able to be added in a future update.

Ability to choose which 32 RTP are shown on the RTP page and assignable to sliders/buttons.

You will be able to do this with the software, and then transmit the modified GE to the User GE Locations. I originally wanted to have this in the unit, but was overruled.

9) Ability to change Karma GE via internal sequencer (currently possible but only via external sysex commands)

BTW, I haven't tried this, but if you change the GE, can't you record the sysex into the internal sequencer?

SECONDARY KARMA REQUESTS
9) Abiltiy to edit certain of pattern grids directly on the Oasys - the drum one probably being the most useful (esp if combined by new drum machine/pattern implementation), followed by the pitch pattern/rhythm.

If there were going to be any, there would likely need to be the whole shebang.

10) In implementation of 3) above, be able to set a time for the change over to occur with a switching time in which the parameters vary linearly (or by steps if appropriate). This is prob quite hard to implement but could lead to some really cool effects.

Yep, I've though of this before and it's on my personal wishlist of things to try, but as you say, quite difficult. I call it the ability to "morph" between scenes over time. Basically, have two scenes, the ability to mark one or more Sliders/Switches as "morphable", and then the ability to make the scene change happen at some time in the future.

11) Ability to change Karma settings after a track has been recorded

Don't understand how this could work, unless you are referring to adding the ability to send a control track of MIDI to KARMA live, so that KARMA generates its stuff in real-time while the sequence is playing each time, rather than being recorded to a track. Once you record the KARMA notes et.c to a track, it's MIDI. If you want to change the KARMA settings, then change them and rerecord new tracks, right? Maybe I don't understand what you mean...

Thanks for the suggestions!

[MIDIguru]

SECONDARY GENERAL REQUESTS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE HARD TO IMPLEMENT
15) Simple arpeggiator for tracks without Karma.
KARMA will do, and can do, any kind of "simple arpeggiation task" you can image. I can only suspect that some people who say this don't understand how to use it to do so. But it's really quite simple. I once wrote a tutorial for the Karma Workstation (KARMA v1) called "using KARMA as a simple arpeggiator." I'll see if I can update that for the OASYS. But basically, if you select one of the first 24 or so GEs (that all have the name "Arp Model"), they do simple arpeggiator stuff like most arpeggiators, albeit with a few more options.

It's not that Karma can't do simple arpeggios, it's that there is no facility to enter simple user generated patterns the way you can with the Triton Arp. Granted, there is a vast wealth of musical knowledge in the Karma GEs, but they can't cover every conceivable style and idea. We need a tool like that.

The right thing to do is allow users the ability to edit the GEs onboard, but Korg may not wish to fund such development. So the next best thing is taking something that is already thought out, the Triton Arpeggiator, and tacking it on.

[Daz]

KARMA will do, and can do, any kind of "simple arpeggiation task" you can image. I can only suspect that some people who say this don't understand how to use it to do so.

The benefit of the Triton style arpeggiator is that you can program the pattern yourself explicitly, which you can't do with Karma (not without your Karma Oasys software). That's particularly good for drum patterns, as was mentioned above, because it's only the editor Korg have offered on a workstation that lets you program drum patterns in grid edit mode. Damn useful and for some more complex drum programming that's essential.

Putting a grid based drum editor in the sequencer is an alternative I suppose.

In summary ... the Triton arps are desirable, not as a replacement for KARMA's arpeggiation ability, but for uses that cover things that aren't strictly arpeggiation.

Daz.

[Daz]

Snap !

I suspect Stephen may have been allowing for what we are talking about by saying "simple arpeggiation" ... but still

For me a special Karma thing for drumming thing would be ace. You program up your drum pattern just like you do with the Triton arp, setting the hits and velocity at each step in the grid AND for each hit/step you can put some of the per step params you find in Karma like the chance of that hit being randomized etc. (there are a bunch of details I'll skip). A very lightweight version of what is seen in the full on Karma editor, but just for drums. That would so awesome. IMHO this should be what the next generation Electribe is. All the best of KARMA and arp/grid drum programming.

{edit: ideally I need to write/draw up a proper explanation of this idea, rather than just vague blurbage ... I'll try doing that later}

Daz.

[StephenKay]

As Daz has suggested, I would prefer to find a way of supplying those types of tools and satisfying those types of needs through KARMA, so that the ability to go much further is also retained. There is actually, BTW, a way to set a GE, and an RTC Model that specifically mimics the way the Triton Arp works - just no way to get at the grids onboard, at the moment.

I'm hoping that I can add the ability to turn a piece of a sequencer track into a GE, directly within the OASYS. That would go along way to solving some of the issues you mention. You could program up a simple drum groove, zap it into a drum GE, and then have the ability to vary it as per usual - but it would have "your" pattern.

[MIDIguru]

I'm hoping that I can add the ability to turn a piece of a sequencer track into a GE, directly within the OASYS. That would go along way to solving some of the issues you mention. You could program up a simple drum groove, zap it into a drum GE, and then have the ability to vary it as per usual - but it would have "your" pattern.

That sounds like a great start Stephen!

Is there any way you can loby for at least being able to edit the pattern element of the GEs with a grid style editor from the Oasys itself? I can understand Korg balking at having total GE editing control, but getting that one small piece would make a bunch of people happy.

[Daz]

As Daz has suggested, I would prefer to find a way of supplying those types of tools and satisfying those types of needs through KARMA, so that the ability to go much further is also retained.

That last phrase is the key thing, because whilst the arps are great ... they have the downside of just repeating themselves Karma would let you take a base pattern and let you make more of it and give you control over variation **during performance** ... as opposed to just copying an arp pattern to another arp pattern slot and then editing it yourself.

I imagine the actual thing would look a lot like the arp editor, but with switchable grids for phases A and B, the ability to enter note pools and all that ... I really must try to draw this up, it's a pig to explain in words.

I'm hoping that I can add the ability to turn a piece of a sequencer track into a GE, directly within the OASYS. That would go along way to solving some of the issues you mention. You could program up a simple drum groove, zap it into a drum GE, and then have the ability to vary it as per usual - but it would have "your" pattern.

That would be a splendid addition, but hopefully only a precursor to something more funky in a future update.

Daz.

[Daz]

...but getting that one small piece would make a bunch of people happy.

I would be in the happy bunch

[domc]

removed double post

[domc]

Many thanks Stephen for your replies

SECONDARY GENERAL REQUESTS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE HARD TO IMPLEMENT
15) Simple arpeggiator for tracks without Karma.

KARMA will do, and can do, any kind of "simple arpeggiation task" you can image. I can only suspect that some people who say this don't understand how to use it to do so. But it's really quite simple. I once wrote a tutorial for the Karma Workstation (KARMA v1) called "using KARMA as a simple arpeggiator." I'll see if I can update that for the OASYS. But basically, if you select one of the first 24 or so GEs (that all have the name "Arp Model"), they do simple arpeggiator stuff like most arpeggiators, albeit with a few more options.

The subsequent discussion around this with you, MIDIguru and Daz was interesting and mirrored some of my thoughts. I agree with MIDIguru that sometimes you just want to do you own pattern quickly (without need to hook up a computer) and if this can't be done with the Karma implementation then maybe a triton arpeggiator (if the technology's built and easily accessible) would get us to this place fairly easily. I also agree that it would be great to go through Karma if possible as that allows the extra (and v.useful) manipulation to be retained. I had been through similar machinations of all of this in my own mind, leading me to the conclusion of my point 9 that having just the drum grids of Karma on the Oasys would be worthwhile (even if these were the only grids implemented).

I like the idea of turning a part of seq track directly into Karma - this would be very useful. However I think that Korg/the Oasys/Karma2 would be missing a really, really useful feature (called for by lots of the community) if some type of grid based programming (esp for drums) was not included. The touchscreen is made for that type of implementation.

Stephen my main wish, if you are able to incorporate some type of uploading of drum tracks into the GEs within the Oasys is that a version of the drum RTCs is made available that allows independent playback of the seven instruments on a grid. Most people would like to be able to do something like:
Four bars: Bass drum
Two bars: Drum & cymbal
Two bars: Add Closed HH
Two bars: Add Opoen HH
Two bars: Add percussion element. etc., etc.
The current implementation of instruments=notes held doesn't do this for me as other times you may want to start with just the HH, then add the reverse cymbal, so it needs to be completely flexible as to which drums play when. My preference is that these are started by either switches/touchscreen rather than notes so that you can clearly label what will happen with each switch press. Also if it is to go through a GE then we need to be able to trigger it from Midi playback rather than having to play live- there's no way you want to have to remember a complicated series of note presses to trigger the drum track each time you play your song. [Plus you want to have your hands free to play a cool synth line above the drum track or to use the sliders and manipulate velocity/duration etc. in real time which is the reason you are using a Karma GE rather than a pattern/arpeggiator in the first place]. I guess an alternative is to set it up so that scene changes can bring in different layers of drums/percussion (again I think it's important that which drums play has to be customisable by the user).

There's a huge amount of work gone into the many great Drum GEs in the Oasys, but I rarely find myself using them (as I think was echoed by K.Nolan's comments in a thread of a few months ago) as it's not easy to build up a track sequentially, bringing in drum elements of your chosing, and then redo bits of it easily later (as you have to record to a midi track as which point manipulation becomes 10 times more difficult). If the suggestions above could be implemented then I think the whole drum GE system would become much more useful to an Oasys owner.

Lastly, if this is all done for a drum track, then to completely obviate a wish for a simple arpeggiator, you'd need to be able to do the same thing for a simple melody. so that without the need to go back and hook up a computer, a user was able to create a quick 1 or 4 bar melody of their choice and then muck around with it via different key presses (or mangle it via Karma).

2) Ability to quantise Karma start / stop

Not sure what you mean by this. What *I want* and have suggested already is the ability to quantize scene changes to the next bar, as an option.

This would be great and would fit in great with drum discussion above.

3) Ability to change other settings as well (eg tone adjust and mixer settings) in each of the scene changes. Prob quite difficult to implement.

I agree this would be nice, but it would be a fairly radical change. I think it would be nice if you could at least have timbre volumes in each scene.

Whatever we could get would be nice.

4) Routing midi tracks to Karma

I've begged to do this for years, even since Karma Workstation and KARMA 1, and recently as well. But it's a sequencer issue. It seems you should not have to use an external sequencer to accomplish this.

As per the discussion on drums, this is essential for really utilising certain GEs (esp drums). People want to be able laydown a drum track and then be able to play on top of it. Having to record all the midi steps so its very hard to edit afterwards has just led to people like me not really using the huge breadth of drum GEs in the current system.

6) I'd like to see for individual Karma modules which RTP parameters are changing when you move a slider (eg that when you moved slider 4 it would tell you that the RTP velocity scale was moving from 0 to 212); this would be especially useful to see on the Play/Karme GE and the Play/Control Surface/Karma pages.

Don't quite understand this one - are you aware of the "KARMA Values" display on the Control Surface and KARMA RTC Pages? Or are you saying you want to see the names (presently you can see which parameter (number), and the actual value i.e. 0 to 212). I personally don't think there's room to show the names... Epecially since some sliders or switches have more than one parameter attached.

Yes it was the latter, I thought there was room for maybe two names (more with a tiny bit of page redesign), and for those of use learning how to program Karma, that would be a big aid in understanding how it was working.

7) Easy way of transferring Karma sequence to patterns without having to play whole section (eg select 4 bars, hold down a few keys on keyboard, hit touchsceen or specific key combination and a new pattern is created representing the output of Karma had those keys been held down for 4 bars). This should be done without having to record to sequence, get from sequence etc.

I like that idea, maybe difficult to implement...I'll have to think about it. I've wanted to do something like that in my software, so if I figure it out, likely it might be able to be added in a future update.

Agreed, prob should have been in second section, but would be great if possible. A common theme coming out of all of this is that closer integration between patterns/Karma (and going back and forth between the two) would seem to be of good benefit.

Ability to choose which 32 RTP are shown on the RTP page and assignable to sliders/buttons.

You will be able to do this with the software, and then transmit the modified GE to the User GE Locations. I originally wanted to have this in the unit, but was overruled.

Fair enough, this would be lower down the list than some of the stuff we've just talked about which would be much more helpful to workflow and more relevant to all users.

SECONDARY KARMA REQUESTS
9) Abiltiy to edit certain of pattern grids directly on the Oasys - the drum one probably being the most useful (esp if combined by new drum machine/pattern implementation), followed by the pitch pattern/rhythm.

If there were going to be any, there would likely need to be the whole shebang.

Maybe drums would be a really helpful addition (as per previous comments). Sounds like it's very unlikely to happen in the immediate future.

10) In implementation of 3) above, be able to set a time for the change over to occur with a switching time in which the parameters vary linearly (or by steps if appropriate). This is prob quite hard to implement but could lead to some really cool effects.

Yep, I've though of this before and it's on my personal wishlist of things to try, but as you say, quite difficult. I call it the ability to "morph" between scenes over time. Basically, have two scenes, the ability to mark one or more Sliders/Switches as "morphable", and then the ability to make the scene change happen at some time in the future.

yep that's the one - Karma 3 perhaps.

11) Ability to change Karma settings after a track has been recorded

Don't understand how this could work, unless you are referring to adding the ability to send a control track of MIDI to KARMA live, so that KARMA generates its stuff in real-time while the sequence is playing each time, rather than being recorded to a track. Once you record the KARMA notes et.c to a track, it's MIDI. If you want to change the KARMA settings, then change them and rerecord new tracks, right? Maybe I don't understand what you mean...

I actually think that the triggering from midi is really what this is getting at as well. Then you could edit the karma settings in real time, and edit the midi track to change whether notes were played or not etc.

Kind regards, Domc

[thekeymaster]

Wow!! Domc I think from now on I will send my suggestions to you mate.What a comprehensive list.If a third of what you mentioned was even looked at I would be amazed.

Great points made people,I have nothing to add really,it seems most of it has been covered already.For me any sequencer enhancements,grid programming and new Exi's would be welcome.


On a lighter note I dont suppose Korg could get the OASYS to make cakes could they????Well we're asking for everything else so we may as well ask for the impossible.

[Daz]

Special multi mode that makes cakes and tea !!

[domc]

Wow!! Domc I think from now on I will send my suggestions to you mate.What a comprehensive list.If a third of what you mentioned was even looked at I would be amazed.

Yeah I did go a little OTT - I've been meaning to do it for a couple of months, but ended up having a sick day on Tuesday and thinking it was now or never. If only one extra suggestion makes it through into OS2.0 (however simple) or a couple of items get added to the future design list then it was worth it.

Sold on the Oasys concept, so just trying to do all I can to push it to the next level. Hopefully we'll we put out of our misery of waiting for the next installment shortly!