Moving from DAW to Workstation: Presales Questions (M3 v XF)

[Jive Talking Robot]

EDIT - This thread has grown pretty long, and, if you are in the market for an M3, it contains a ton of useful info... so I might as well not make it "all about me." I would like to share with other non M3 owners some great resources I have used to get me to this point.

Check out the Virtual M3 GUI here: http://www.karma-lab.com/m3/gui/m3vgui2.html

Check out the Karma Lab videos here: http://www.karma-lab.com/vp/klvp2.html?playID=42

Check out the manual as software downloads here (including the M3 editor - hat tip to cello!): http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=280

Check out various videos here : http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=280

Finally, check out this great M3 WIKI: http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/korg-m3:start

Hope that helps!

Apologies on the long post, but, as I am asking for opinions and advice, I figure I should be as complete as possible. No need to respond to the whole thing of course... I am looking for any thoughts on any of these questions/concerns. I want to take a break from DAWs, soft synths and the 1000 options they bring; after spending some time with a friends Motif, I really appreciate what a workstation brings to the table. They are immediate, inspiring and surprisingly fun. I want to invest in my first workstation with the idea that I could compose a whole song on it w/o having to fire up a DAW! I have narrowed it down to an Motif XF or an M3. Some quick background:

Patch Programming
I don't mind if I have to menu dive, use a software front end, or use knobs and sliders - it all works well for me as long as the workflow is logical and intelligent in its approach. I DO need synth knobs/sliders for live performance tweaks however.

Sounds I Need to Sound GOOD!
Pianos, EPs, calvs, 'Trons, creamy strings (both "real" and "string machine"), "Strumable" acoustic guitars are important to me. I like the odd, funky jazz flute too. Warm, punchy, “wet” vintage analog synths sounds are important to me as well... for both comping (think Herbie Hancock) and sequencing (think any 80s John Carpenter score). While I appreciate a dedicated VA may be better at this sort of thing, I do not turn my nose up at a sample based approach to analog emulation and/or a VA add in card. I also employ big, swirling pads and gritty digital soundscapes.

The inherent limitations of a workstation
Yes I get I am limited to 16 tracks, that I have limited audio storage for adding guitars/vocals, that I would be working on a tiny screen, and that sometimes a massive sample library sounds "better". I am embracing these limitations in the name of working fast and having fun. I find I often work better with less to be honest.

What I plan to compose
All over the map, but heavy on the electro funk and moody ambient side of things.

Specific M3 Questions
1) Does the Chord Memory carry over to the sequencer? i.e. Can play the chords directly in the sequencer? And does every patch have a series of chords pre-loaded?

2) Can the internal M3 sequencer control an external synth, i.e. a Virus? Would it capture its controller data ala knob turns, etc?

3) I know the Radias board has 128 patches... can I save new patches I create to user banks, or do they overwrite the existing 128 patches? Re: user banks in general, how many of my own patches can I save? I assume that the commercial sound sets I can buy can be loaded in to the Ram... do these get loaded in to the “user” banks?

4) Other than the obvious space limitations, am I limited to how many samples I can use in a song? I know I have a 16 track limit and that MIDI triggers the samples, but can I have multiple tracks triggering multiple sample loops… as in “track one has a dozen different vocal samples and track two has a dozen different guitar riffs:? I assume yes, but I want to make sure.

5) Sorry for asking such a shallow question, but does the M3 look as "cheap" in person as it does in some pics I have seen? Is the chassis actually white plastic or brushed silver aluminum? And how about the tactile/build quality of the pads, buttons and sliders?

6) Can you use Karma in song/sequencer mode, or is it limited to combis?

7) The Motif has a ton of 3rd party sound sets, with more on the way. Does the M3 have similar deep support?

Any other thoughts? Things you think I should consider?

Whew… again, apologies on the long post, but I value anyone’s advice and thoughts on this. This is an expensive decision, and whatever workstation I get, I am going to go all in. Pound for pound, the M3 brings a TON to the table... in fact, low sample ram and a plasticy look are it's only real downsides. I really don't know why more folks don't talk about this workstation, because it seems, on paper, to have so much going for it!

Thanks for your help! - Mike

[apex]

Don't worry about the long post. It's best to be complete when you ask questions.... and it's your money you're spending, so you should be sure.

After reading your post, I want you to look into one other option.

THE ROLAND FANTOM G

Now my answers to your questions.

Patch Programming
If you are considering something for live use as far as being able to tweak sounds, I would not even consider the Motif anything.... that's just my opinion. I just don't feel that they make it very easy to tweak stuff in a fast paced/"live' setting. Ask around, I'm sure you'll hear that over and over again!

Sounds
As far as sounds are concerned, all three are going to have great bread and butter... some are better in some areas than others, but you'll be extremely happy either way you go as far as sounds are concerned. The Fantom G has 3 ARX expansion cards (drums, electric pianos, brass)... but I do think that the XF has a leg up on everyone with this ability that the Flash memory brings to the table. You can load up your favorite samples/sample sets and they are ready to go as soon as you turn on the machine from then on.
THAT TO ME, WOULD MEAN A HUGE LOT!!!!!! LOL!!! (not because I have to load up stuff all the time (in my current setup) cause I don't.... But I think if I had that ability, I would do use it!!! (but that's extra (the flash memory option) that you have to purchase, and it's not cheap.

Workstation Limitations
This is where I think the Fantom G really shines above the other workstations. Yes, you only have 16 tracks/parts that you can work with, but the Fantom G actually has a 128 midi track sequencer and also 24 tracks that allow real audio (samples or real time vocals) to be recorded on. You still only have 16 tracks/parts, but you essentially can have multiple tracks with one sound on them (example, you can have your piano on two different tracks... one recording only the left hand and then the other recording only the right hand, then another piano part that is doing fills or licks...) you can do this will all your 16 parts. Also with the Fantom G, you don't have a tiny screen. You have a large color screen that looks beautiful!!! and is a pleasure to work on.

Those 24 audio tracks are used seamlessly into your sequences. The only bad thing about them, is that if you start your sequence in the middle of one of the audio tracks, I don't think it will trigger sound from the middle of the sample. So you have to always start them from the middle in order for them to be triggered. (I think this limitation is the same on all the synths...)

Composition
You can use any of the synths for any types of music. BELIEVE THAT!!!!

Specific M# Questions
1. Not sure about the chord memory being used in the sequencer, but I'm sure it can be. I'll check and re-post about that later. Yes, all the patches have preset chords... unless they are polyphonic patches (I'm almost sure about that)

2. Yes the m3 can control an external synth. But it's not very user friendly. (My opinion) If you want a workstation that can control an external synth with absolutely NO ISSUES at all....

ROLAND FANTOM G but since I've talked about the Fantom G so much already... I'll wait and get your response from that before I give more juicy info... but BRO BELIEVE ME... it's a beast (especially in the control external synth category)

3. I have a Radias board, but I'm not sure about this either. (Not positive) I'll post back about this too.

5. The m3 is beautiful. Just different!!! I love it.

[cello]

Interesting post - here's my response; hope it helps!

Patch Programming
This is a good thing as there are several deep-dives! But they are rewarding... The control surface (where the Karma controls are) provides different modes including realtime mixing and sound shaping so great for live work – but these changes are not recordable.

Sounds I Need to Sound GOOD!
I’d say the M3 fits the bill!

The inherent limitations of a workstation
Your philosophy is good – all too easy to ‘overcook’ something just because it’s technically possible to add more! But for me there's more than enough.

What I plan to compose
M3/EXB-Radias combo is just the ticket then!

Specific M3 Questions
1) Most combis and programs (patches) have chords assigned to the pads – mostly for demo purposes really. Some are quite good out of the box. You can play the chord pads whilst the sequencer is playing something – as long as there’s a track available and you have that sound selected.

2) Haven’t used my kit in this way to be honest but I just tested my M3 putting out a sequence to my external Radias and it worked fine however I don’t think the knob turns would be captured.

3) The Radias has more than 128 patches. There’s 128 Combis then 128 programs. Then there are 2 user banks for each giving 256 user defined patches. As far as general user patches you have up to (remember some are used for Korg extras you can download) 128 x 7 (A through to G) x 2 (Combi and program) which equals an absolute maximum of 1,792 user defined patches. Realistically however, I’d say you have about half of that – still not a bad number!

4) Don’t know but would be surprised if not.

5) The M3 is a beautiful looking machine (I think)! Certainly not cheap looking. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder... For me, theM3 looks unique and purposeful and is easy on the eye

6) Not used Karma this way but according to the manual, yes. Karma works in sequencer mode.

7) There are lots of 3rd party sound sets you can buy, some are free. Korg has some free sample libraries. Chargeable – Kid Nepro, Steve Kay (Karma website) and Karo (among others – but they are the quality end). Free – Stan Desco at Karma website.

Other comments
The M3 is an amazing machine – it ticks all my boxes. But I’m not naive; it’s not perfect! For me, the biggest weakness with the M3 is sound library management. If you download 3rd party sounds, they overwrite a whole bank (128) even although there may only be 32 patches. It’s VERY, VERY, VERY difficult to move them (particularly if combis) because the programs they use are hard coded – the programs have to be where the combi wants them, if not it doesn’t work. And if the program has to overwrite your favourite program – that’s what it’ll do There is a workaround and that is you have different backups on the USB stick. Then you just load up the whole databank for the sounds you need. Each complete backup of all M3 data (including sequences, etc) is about 23Mb. So an average USB will hold many different back up sets.

I would recommend you get the 256Mb memory expansion as the KEP files (Korgs own sample library) load automatically each time you start up – if you don’t, then you can only auto-load one at a time. Plus you will need it if you want to create your own samples.

There you have it - my views anyway!

[gjvti]

Currently, as far as I am aware, audio recording on korg workstation line-up is very limited feature. In particular with M3 it is limited to the amount of ram - total 5 minutes or so with default RAM and up to 20 minutes of uncompressed wav data with RAM expansion. So if you really want to record audio not just add some voiceover or guitar riff or wav effect, then I'm afraid you have to look for other non Korg solution ... or search for second-hand oasys

[cello]

Just remembered another thing to watch out for with 3rd party sounds which is a pain (and you should be aware of):

When you upload new sounds onto the M3 be they from the M3 Editor or your USB stick, a bank gets occupied with those new sounds. BUT what also happens is that the Global settings of the developer's M3 gets carried over to your M3 (not all the time - but sometimes)! I bought some sounds recently, uploaded them and 2 things happened to my global settings:

1. The midi settings changed from auto to internal and
2. The pedal setting went from (-) Korg default to (+) which makes a korg pedal no more than a foot switch! Took me ages to find out what the problem was.

Anyway, just letting you know.

[Shakil]

Those 24 audio tracks are used seamlessly into your sequences. The only bad thing about them, is that if you start your sequence in the middle of one of the audio tracks, I don't think it will trigger sound from the middle of the sample. So you have to always start them from the middle in order for them to be triggered. (I think this limitation is the same on all the synths...

Actually, the audio tracks on Fantom-G can playback from anywhere in the song. They 'are' samples, but when a sample is put on audio track, they behave like a true audio file as on DAW, play back from any point. And the other powerful feature is that the audio automatically stretches to tempo... like on loop-based DAWs (ACID.. etc)

[Shakil]

But I’m not naive; it’s not perfect! For me, the biggest weakness with the M3 is sound library management. If you download 3rd party sounds, they overwrite a whole bank (128) even although there may only be 32 patches. It’s VERY, VERY, VERY difficult to move them (particularly if combis) because the programs they use are hard coded – the programs have to be where the combi wants them, if not it doesn’t work. And if the program has to overwrite your favourite program – that’s what it’ll do

LOL... you haven't seen Fantom-G sound library management. After you see that, you will feel like in heaven with M3.

There is a way to import only a single program from the third party sound banks... what's cool is that you can play the sounds (ROM based) even without loading/importing them to M3.... just bring up the folder on USB drive in MEDIA mode, open the .PCG files, open the programs, bank, and then click on any program to start playing.......... INFINITE SOUND BANKS!!

[Shakil]

The inherent limitations of a workstation
Yes I get I am limited to 16 tracks, that I have limited audio storage for adding guitars/vocals, that I would be working on a tiny screen, and that sometimes a massive sample library sounds "better". I am embracing these limitations in the name of working fast and having fun. I find I often work better with less to be honest.

Apex talked a lot about Fantom-G...... Fantom-G is 'almost' a good workstation.... you have to be aware of the issues with it's sequencer. There are so many issues with it from editing and project management point of view, that's it's not even funny. Let's not even get into sample management/editing and data management utility, support.. etc Hop to Fantom-G group on facebook to read up on that.

[apex]

LOL... you haven't seen Fantom-G sound library management. After you see that, you will feel like in heaven with M3.

There is a way to import only a single program from the third party sound banks... what's cool is that you can play the sounds (ROM based) even without loading/importing them to M3.... just bring up the folder on USB drive in MEDIA mode, open the .PCG files, open the programs, bank, and then click on any program to start playing.......... INFINITE SOUND BANKS!!

Nice trick Shakil!!!! I'm sure that would be helpful to someone in a live situation... (not really in the studio as much), but at the same time... who needs infinite sounds banks? The way the M3 is set up, you can change all presets and save them.... so you don't have to only use the user banks for your own sounds... (why do they differentiate between the preset banks and user banks on the m3... doesn't really make sense when you think about it...LOL)

[apex]

The inherent limitations of a workstation
Yes I get I am limited to 16 tracks, that I have limited audio storage for adding guitars/vocals, that I would be working on a tiny screen, and that sometimes a massive sample library sounds "better". I am embracing these limitations in the name of working fast and having fun. I find I often work better with less to be honest.

Apex talked a lot about Fantom-G...... Fantom-G is 'almost' a good workstation.... you have to be aware of the issues with it's sequencer. There are so many issues with it from editing and project management point of view, that's it's not even funny. Let's not even get into sample management/editing and data management utility, support.. etc Hop to Fantom-G group on facebook to read up on that.

There are issues (in some people's opinion) I've not run into ANY of those problems myself yet... so I guess it's kinda circumstantial. Everyone doesn't run into those issues. And even with the issues, the Fantom G is still a VERY FUNCTIONAL ALL AROUND WORKHORSE....

especially considering this guys wants to do full compositions on it without using a DAW at all... I think the Fantom G is alot more suited for this vs any of the Motif boards or the M3... if for no other reason because of it's external control and the Audio track/sample feature....

What do you think?

Hey maybe I should forward him to my post from when I was trying to decide between instruments.... Remember those?

[Synthoid]

What I plan to compose
All over the map, but heavy on the electro funk and moody ambient side of things.

The M3 excels in the area of ambient music... especially with KARMA. You can create some of the most unusual and lush textures with it, or something totally bizarre.

Just a few useful features the M3 offers:

KARMA, touch screen, plenty of user sound banks (Yamaha XF will only have 4), more user-intuitive file system, superior motion sounds and pads, 10-key pad (makes sound selection a breeze), instant inspiration.

[Jive Talking Robot]

Wow, it was a nice treat to check out this thread and see all the replys. Many thanks for the detailed reply Apex and Cello... most, most helpful.

Cello... I really appreciate the heads up on the on the 3rd party patch management. Not a deal breaker, but these kind of goofy workflow issues I'd rather know about in advance, so thanks a ton for the heads up.

Apex, I had not considered the Roland to be honest... if only because I have never played ANY of the Fantom family. I know Kurzweil and Yamaha the best, followed by Korg. Roland is a bit of an unknown to me, but perhaps I should crack open their manual and track one down in a store to take it for a spin. Thanks for your thought.

Shakil... I assume that you are the very same Shakil @ the motif forum? If so, thanks for you help there as well!

Hey maybe I should forward him to my post from when I was trying to decide between instruments.... Remember those?

I'd love to read those actually!

[Jive Talking Robot]

The M3 excels in the area of ambient music... especially with KARMA. You can create some of the most unusual and lush textures with it, or something totally bizarre.

KARMA is so very very cool... it is a huge selling point to be sure. According to what I read, it looks like you can capture your real-time KARMA tweaks in the sequencer as well. Holy smokes!!! Plus the ability to make your own? Wiked stuff.

[cminor]

M3
Bad things:
- not a single new synth lead.... all sounds like triton (and the classic one)
- not only that the maximum sample RAM is small (320MB) but it is shared with the EX-USB expansions (not like the SRX/ARX on fantom), and the "presets" WILL erase your user banks (the SRX are coming with presets that doesn't take user programs from your internal/card presets.
- mono... damn , MONO sampling! Yes still the sampling is split in two L and R maps.
- no internal HDD option.. you have to use an usb hdd but it must be self powered (my 2.5" usb powered didn't work....)
- too many general midi sounds... only a few sounds are original...
like the mongolian voice, the Noise Stabber from Triton (with a different name , and the popcorn hit (hit of the new trance wave).
- too many problems with the audio card (firewire option)

Good things:
- maaaannnnyyyy user banks. You can erase and make you own combi/program in all the banks (except for the I-F that is only for radias option) meaning 1664 user programs/combis.
Not 128, not 256, not 512..... 1664 user programs/combis!
- the samples are very COMPATIBLE, and there are many software that can transform/convert, whatever...
- looks very good, and the controllers are very simple and sofisticated in the same time
- the pads are very usefull
- if you buy (damn... ) Karma software, you can make some beast arpegiators

[apex]

Hey maybe I should forward him to my post from when I was trying to decide between instruments.... Remember those?

I'd love to read those actually! [/quote]

ok!!! Here you go!!!

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=53480

and the second one

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=52102