Moving from DAW to Workstation: Presales Questions (M3 v XF)

[Jive Talking Robot]

M3
Bad things:
- not a single new synth lead.... all sounds like triton (and the classic one)
- not only that the maximum sample RAM is small (320MB) but it is shared with the EX-USB expansions (not like the SRX/ARX on fantom), and the "presets" WILL erase your user banks (the SRX are coming with presets that doesn't take user programs from your internal/card presets.
- mono... damn , MONO sampling! Yes still the sampling is split in two L and R maps.
- no internal HDD option.. you have to use an usb hdd but it must be self powered (my 2.5" usb powered didn't work....)
- too many general midi sounds... only a few sounds are original...
like the mongolian voice, the Noise Stabber from Triton (with a different name , and the popcorn hit (hit of the new trance wave).
- too many problems with the audio card (firewire option)

Good things:
- maaaannnnyyyy user banks. You can erase and make you own combi/program in all the banks (except for the I-F that is only for radias option) meaning 1664 user programs/combis.
Not 128, not 256, not 512..... 1664 user programs/combis!
- the samples are very COMPATIBLE, and there are many software that can transform/convert, whatever...
- looks very good, and the controllers are very simple and sofisticated in the same time
- the pads are very usefull
- if you buy (damn... ) Karma software, you can make some beast arpegiators

Very useful info. Re: the synth leads... I assume this wouldn't be an issue if I install the Radias board?

RE: sampling... does that mean if I resample something inside the M3, it gives it back to me as a mono left and right channel? Or if I capture a stereo sound, it will split it as two mono files?

re: userbanks... I know the m3 has a ton of user banks... is this issue w/ overwriting only a problem if you have all the user banks loaded? Can you rout where these samples / 3rd party banks go? I like to program a lot of my own sounds, so I am glad I have the space... but man It would stink to get my sounds wiped out and to have to reload them from a thumb drive everything I loaded in a 3rd party bank or sampled.

[apex]

Hey maybe I should forward him to my post from when I was trying to decide between instruments.... Remember those?

I'd love to read those actually!

ok!!! Here you go!!!

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=53480

and the second one

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=52102

[Jive Talking Robot]

ok!!! Here you go!!!

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=53480

and the second one

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=52102

Cheers! I appreciate it.

[Synthoid]

M3
Bad things:
- not a single new synth lead.... all sounds like triton (and the classic one)

Don't rely on factory presets... make your own sounds!

[Jive Talking Robot]

M3
Bad things:
- not a single new synth lead.... all sounds like triton (and the classic one)

Don't rely on factory presets... make your own sounds!

I know a workstation = menu diving, but in reading the M3 manual, it actually seems like the programming workflow is pretty clean. Seems like a fun board to program actually. Any issues you have run in to w/ programming the M3?

[Synthoid]

Much easier to program than the Motif XS.

Korg did a great job designing the M3 operating system... and as I said before, the touch screen makes navigation easy.

[Jive Talking Robot]

That's good to hear. The demo videos seem to indicate this as well. I see you own an XS (and a Kurz!)... save for greater RAM, what do you feel the XS does better than the M3?

Another general question for anyone... I know the Kurz PC3 can run 16 arps and the XF 4 arps... can you run multiple instances of KARMA in a song? I.E. have a drom and a few synth parts all w/ different KARMA events applied?

[Synthoid]

That's good to hear. The demo videos seem to indicate this as well. I see you own an XS (and a Kurz!)... save for greater RAM, what do you feel the XS does better than the M3?

Well, it does offer some really good acoustic sounds. I prefer the Motif's organs, EP's and orchestral sounds over the M3. Many of the drum samples are better on the Motif as well. It also has non-volatile sequencer memory, so your songs are retained when you turn off the keyboard.

Downsides of the Motif are: you can only use 4 sounds in Performance Mode for splits and layers. (The M3 lets you combine up to 16 sounds!) Navigating the front panel of the Motif requires more button pressing and menu diving since it lacks a touch screen.

I'd like to sell the Kurzweil though... too many keyboards around here.

Another general question for anyone... I know the Kurz PC3 can run 16 arps and the XF 4 arps... can you run multiple instances of KARMA in a song? I.E. have a drom and a few synth parts all w/ different KARMA events applied?

You can have up to 4 different KARMA patterns along with a separate drum track in combination mode. Keep in mind that KARMA is very different from standard arps... it allows for random events. The Motif offers a great selection of arps out of the box--and you can create your own--but they are very static.

Funny thing... I have yet to see anyone post a song with the PC3 running more than 2-3 simultaneous arps.

[Jive Talking Robot]

You can have up to 4 different KARMA patterns along with a separate drum track in combination mode. Keep in mind that KARMA is very different from standard arps... it allows for random events. The Motif offers a great selection of arps out of the box--and you can create your own--but they are very static.

Funny thing... I have yet to see anyone post a song with the PC3 running more than 2-3 simultaneous arps.

Thanks! Yeah, unless you are in to some serious Berlin School sequencing, 16 arps is a bit much (...it's a bit much even for the Berlin School stuff).

Based on your post, I hit up the manual... I read that you can take your combis w/ the KARMA patterns and convert them to a song in the sequencer... so I assume a song will allow for x4 Karma patterns? Can someone confirm this?

And silly question in light of all that KARMA can do, but I assume you can deploy it as a standard Arp as well? Sometimes simple is best with a nice pulsing synth bass.

[cello]

Oh, yes Karma does simple arps as well as its 'magic'!

It's not an easy art right enough but is best used with the M3 Editor (the app) as opposed to doing it onboard the M3 - but that might just be me!

Can't confirm or otherwise about 4x karma in seq mode. Seems logical that it does but who knows... !

[Synthoid]

I read that you can take your combis w/ the KARMA patterns and convert them to a song in the sequencer... so I assume a song will allow for x4 Karma patterns? Can someone confirm this?

Yes, anything you can play in either program or combination mode (KARMA included) can be used as a song in sequence mode.

[cminor]

Very useful info. Re: the synth leads... I assume this wouldn't be an issue if I install the Radias board?

RE: sampling... does that mean if I resample something inside the M3, it gives it back to me as a mono left and right channel? Or if I capture a stereo sound, it will split it as two mono files?

re: userbanks... I know the m3 has a ton of user banks... is this issue w/ overwriting only a problem if you have all the user banks loaded? Can you rout where these samples / 3rd party banks go? I like to program a lot of my own sounds, so I am glad I have the space... but man It would stink to get my sounds wiped out and to have to reload them from a thumb drive everything I loaded in a 3rd party bank or sampled.

1. I had about 3 days a EXB-Radias inside, from a friend... aand nothing was changed. to be onest, the sounds are just like the M3synths (Not only leads): muffy fluffy puffy....
Even thru compressor the sound didn't have the attack I wanted.
But is not that I didn't like... it the fact that the M3 doesn't have sounds that you could say "yes, I knew that program/patch , sound/tone , it cames from M3 Korg" !
The sounds are just BORING and with nothing ORIGINAL.
My luck is that i have sampled many keyboards in my ten years of studio working, and now my M3 have samples from Clavia Nordlead 2, K2600 Kurzweil, Roland JP8000, Fantom-X (had an XR actually), and other stuff.
So no, the Radias expansion is... not my advice.
Between EXB-Radias and EXB-M356 I'll say TAKE THE RAM MAN
2.User banks... well yes, you can load programs/combi... where you want ... but the combis .. I don't know if the programs will match.
My advise is this.
Make a backup every moment you change something.
If you want to load a combi, load everything and write down the programs
second advice: listen first to ALL the programs/combis and if something doesn't seem to be on your "groove" , rename it as "to erase". and when you want to load other programs/combis, you will know where you can load it without erasing what you like
before that, after renaming the programs, check if the combis you like does use some "to erase" programs, and make up your mind if you want to Change the programs or not erase them
3. I "findout" why Korg didn't make an option that could autoload your samples....
Well this way you can make tones of 320mb samples banks and without erasing the entire programs/combis
I have 3 kind of music I like to sing.
1. is electronical and the bank I use have about 300mb of sampling
2.folk music, about 280mb
3. pop-rock 200mb.
so all of them could not be posible in the same time...
so the programs are "the same". but the sample ksc bank loaded in the RAM is different.
It's true that if I use a "synth" program used in the Electronical Set , it will sound different (the list of samples will be different because of a different KSC set )

[cello]

re: userbanks... I know the m3 has a ton of user banks... is this issue w/ overwriting only a problem if you have all the user banks loaded? Can you rout where these samples / 3rd party banks go? I like to program a lot of my own sounds, so I am glad I have the space...

Programs are easier to work with than combis as far as storing is concerned. You can pretty much put programs anywhere you like overwriting whatever you like - apart from F as it is reserved for Radias. Combis need to be put in an exact location with its contributing programs in exact locations... move any one of those to somewhere else, the sound will either not work or use different program(s) so sound different.

but man It would stink to get my sounds wiped out and to have to reload them from a thumb drive everything I loaded in a 3rd party bank or sampled.

Has happened to me twice... never again! And of course you can't back up your stuff AFTER the mistake has happened. So what I do now is at the end of every day I back up the whole shebang - M3 and USB drive. Should I want to load 3rd party stuff, I load it into the M3 Editor and see which bank its going to occupy and then I see what sound I'm losing. If there's some cracking stuff there, I will be VERY selective about the 3rd party sounds as I only want to spend time and effort moving 1 or 2 of them! Then I load the pcg onto the M3 and play (always still the best part!).

I then go through global settings and reset to mine if I have to. Then I either decide - nope, none for me, so load up the previous .m3All backup. If I do like a sound I want to keep - I can either keep it on my USB drive and load it when I need it or, spend an AGE moving the programs and combi to places I want them.

1. I had about 3 days a EXB-Radias inside, from a friend... aand nothing was changed. to be onest, the sounds are just like the M3synths (Not only leads): muffy fluffy puffy....
Even thru compressor the sound didn't have the attack I wanted.
But is not that I didn't like... it the fact that the M3 doesn't have sounds that you could say "yes, I knew that program/patch , sound/tone , it cames from M3 Korg" !
The sounds are just BORING and with nothing ORIGINAL.

Have to disagree with you here cminor! I have yet to find a boring sound - okay, I might never use some of them, but there's nothing boring! And there are plenty of original sounds onboard... although I've heard some sounds many times, I still am surprised when I happen upon some of them! But having said that - we're probably producing different types of music so hence why there will always be different views about our instruments!

PS There's nothing wrong with the EXB-RAD leads either...

[_joe_]

I would just love to add that for anyone thinking that the M3 sounds are not punchy (some of you even mentioned the lack of "cutting through" leads), the M3 is the only instrument i played that can cut through a mix the way it does. The lead power is surreal and the level of control is huge, just go to the space4keys forum www.space4keys.com and go to the patch video section watch the Ultimate Ex demo video, all leads are patches and IMHO, they can make people shake (maybe cry out of pride cause those leads will make you reconsider your programing skills) at a concert.

regards

[gjvti]

RE: sampling... does that mean if I resample something inside the M3, it gives it back to me as a mono left and right channel? Or if I capture a stereo sound, it will split it as two mono files?

If you sample directly with m3 on RAM, you can sample stereo and it automatically splits to two mono to be used for new program correctly. However I haven't used sampling much other than recording my performances to USB in stereo. Stereo waves on USB should be split to L/R before they can be used to build stereo sampling program I think.

What I like in m3
1. character how it sounds (a little misty and fattier in comparison to bright crisp yamaha and roland in my opinion); I like that, but actually I guess every of these machines can be tweaked much in desired direction.
2. Karma is really good for irregular textures and also allows playing keyboard in guitar style (chords one hand, note advance with other just for fun) Karma is helpful to quickly capture and ideas, but may require Karma editing software to achieve some specific riff or effect.
3. Plenty of free space for user programs and combinations (very, very important to me)
4. I personally like M3 tone adjust and effects routing system and vast sound modulation options which unfortunately are scattered through many pages instead of single modulation matrix, another advantage is that touch screen can be used as additional X/Y effects pad controlling for example delay feedback or other sound modulation parameters
5. Pads are very useful for playing chords and can trigger karma or RPPRs (for example drum rolls) as well

What I miss on M3
1. no fully featured audio recording, but as I mentioned Korg currently have no solution for this at all. No way to resample through external effect processor or mixer - this creates feedback and is still unsolved bug I guess - very advanced M3 buss routing system leads to think me that this limitation is not intentional
2. Combinations do not save programs, just references, what means you can't rearrange or make major redesign of program without affecting your combinations. However quite a lot of program parameters can be changed in combi mode including choosing different sample.
3. No multitrack RPPR what means single key = single midi pattern/riff - if you are going to have 88 model this is not an issue obviously also for some strange reason you have to put your RPPR pattern to sequencer timeline to edit it visually and load it back again in RPPR slot for triggering - no direct piano style editor for RPPR despite that such editor is built in - just inconvenient!
4. Many users complain that you cannot seamlessly switch to other program or combination without abruptly chopping sound, but somehow this is not that important to me - so far I relay on single combinations. And actually for switching programs there are some workarounds like program bank combis.

PS. I have no radias board, because I have virus synth and still consider radias rack. But I guess integrated radias board can breath much of new life in you accustomed sampled soundscapes.