Cast a Vote - Should KORG release past keyboards as VSTi's.

[vEddY]

Hi all.
I'm posting this in the latest news section just to grab more attention.
Should KORG release past keyboards each as a VSTi is the question.
As in one VSTi each for the following keyboards.
Triton Extreme, Trinity, 01W, Prophecy, Z1 and so on.....

For what it's worth, as I've said about a million times before.. I'd buy them all in a heartbeat. All of the above. "Brewster's millions" pun intended.

[Kevin Nolan]

I'm waiting on an O1W VSTi. It is still a strong and unique rompler sample-set. It really is THAT strong, and would compliment their existing line so well.

[kenackr]

Kevin,

That's exactly why I've hung on to my T1 - [88] all these years. It still has very distinct sounds and is the foundation upon which the 01/W was built.

Interestingly enough, I like the action on the T1 more than the Oasys 88.
It also has better master controller attributes than the big O too, if one likes to midi up to other sound modules/keyboards, as I do. (Distinct 32 channel output, etc)


@ McHale,

Thanks for the info on Yamaha's prior link with Korg. I didn't know that, but now I know why Korg put a Yamaha key-bed in my T1!

Ken

[Timo]

I'm 99.99% sure that MOSS in any form, especially a VSTi, isn't going to happen from Korg. Korg has nobody familiar with it at this point and MOSS in general has been a dead technology for a long time.

I think the problem with a Moss VST-i is that Moss has never been superseded or surpassed by anything, other than the OASYS-PCI card. As such, Moss is still effectively 'top of the line' (flagship technology) with regards to the physical modelling side of things, it still sounds really good. As such I wonder if Korg feel they could risk giving away the end product of all that R&D into a VST-i that could effectively be 'cracked'.

However the Moss is a generation behind the Oasys-PCI so they could risk releasing Moss as a VST-i without compromising their more modern algorithms.

I would so, so love to see a Moss- or Oasys-VSTi (I'm referring to the Oasys-PCI card, not the Oasys keyboard), if Korg never plan to supersede them with future hardware products.

Reason why? Because this algorithmic-heavy technology is naturally very DSP- and hardware-intensive, and such physical implementations in the form of a hardware keyboard (such as Z1) are expensive to develop and produce and only tend to sell in lower numbers (I believe even the Oasys-PCI card was a commercial flop due to hardware incompatibilities and OS constraints.) and could therefore never likely see the light of production, especially in the current software-dominated music production climate. However in native VST-i form, without the constraints of hardware, and because computers are very powerful thesedays, the time has come where Oasys/Moss can come into its own natively. It would just require the mother of all anti-cracking technologies to retain full control over it.

The new RADIAS tech is AWESOME! But M.O.S.S. is AWESOME too!

Affirmitive. Moss can do so much that the Radias cannot. I initially thought Radias would be going over old ground, but found it couldn't be further from the truth. Moss still holds its own, very well indeed. Radias is equally great, but is both sonically and synthetically (functionally) very different. So in many cases, Radias hasn't surpassed Moss.

I'm not ripping on MOSS. I'm pointing out that MOSS was developed under license of physical modeling patents by Sondius XG, who are/were owned by Stanford University and by Yamaha. Those patents still belong to Sondius, Stanford, Yamaha, whoever, but not by Korg.

Think I have to correct you here. If I remember correctly from what Jerry (Kovarsky) mentioned in the past, only one very tiny aspect of Moss was licensed from Yamaha, and that referred to the VPM (FM). Absolutely all of the rest of the algorithms and synth models were developed entirely by Korg R&D. Even the VPM engine was actually developed entirely by Korg, but it overlapped FM slightly and thus Korg needed the license in order to release it. It was a long time ago and can't remember the exact details, so if this is wrong I hope Jerry (if he's reading this) might correct me.

Also, Korg no longer is licensing the technology and licenses are no longer being issued. Now, tack on that MOSS had minimal resources allocated to it's development when Korg was licensing it and those resources are no longer available to KORG - AND NEVER WILL BE.

And I'm pretty sure that when Korg was licensing this that was when they were partly owned by who? YAMAHA (which made the license possible). FYI, Yamaha doesn't own Korg anymore.

I'm not being rude, you and others are being thick. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for Korg to bring back MOSS modeling technology back in any capacity. They can't even remanufacture MOSS cards if there was a market for it because of the licensing expiring. I would suggest you do some research on MOSS and see who owns it, licenses it, and what's been done with it lately.

I feel I may have to correct you yet again. I believe one of the main reasons Moss was never developed further may have been sadly due to the unfortunate, abrupt death of the main Moss Korg developer.

[Ahnyxrik]

McHale & Timo-- I LOVE YOU BOTH! I love people who know the facts/history of the technology I love dearly! It is soooo stimulating to read on about this subject!

McHale- sorry for the "rude" comment! I had a little too much wine last night & got "sensitive" about my M.O.S.S. fetish! I just wish an outside source (like Arturia, someone else) could develop the VSTi- but I can only wish for & pet my M.O.S.S. hardware for now...

Timo- WOW you have educated me MULTIPLE times with your extensive knowledge! THANK YOU FOR THIS INFORMATION! YOU ROCK!
You ALL ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[McHale]

I feel I may have to correct you yet again. I believe one of the main reasons Moss was never developed further may have been sadly due to the unfortunate, abrupt death of the main Moss Korg developer.

This is one of the primary reasons. I just didn't know how public this fact was and didn't want to be the guy that shared it as it was told to me in private. Even if Korg purchased 100% of the MOSS technology from Yamaha/Stanford, they would still have nobody on staff familiar with it and they certainly wouldn't have the resources to train anyone one on it. MOSS is gone. Sad but true fact.

And I appreciate the correction, but as far as how much Korg developed of MOSS, let's start here:

http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=432

[* Developed under license of physical modeling patents (listed in http://www.sondius-XG.com) owned by Stanford University, USA, and by Yamaha Corporation.]

Now let's go here:

http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/ ... _synthesis

Yamaha signed a contract with Stanford University in 1989 to jointly develop digital waveguide synthesis, and as such most patents related to the technology are owned by Stanford or Yamaha.

Now lets' go back to the site that Korg referenced on the MOSS page:

http://www.sondius-xg.com/

DAMN. Internet Archive is down. When it's back up, go to http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.sondius-xg.com/

MOSS is not a Korg technology, it is owned and licensed from Yamaha and Stanford. Korg licensed some of the synthesis types (brass, analog, organ, sax, etc) but not all. They then developed the expansion cards using those technologies. I'm sure I'm partially wrong on some of the details, but the licenses and who owns and developed MOSS is pretty cut and dry and up until now, I thought it was pretty clearly known.

Again, I'm not ripping on Korg or MOSS. MOSS was so far ahead of it's time when it came out and still to this day can better pull of some synthesis types that nobody can touch. It's just time to let go of a new MOSS synth or expansion card.

[jerrythek]

Sorry guys, but very wrong, actually.

The licenses have/had to be paid just to work in that field of science. No code was shared, no lessons taught to Korg, but to do work within those scientific areas the licenses had to be paid/observed. The STR-1 came with the same legal issues, even though ALL the development was done by Korg.

So ALL the engines in MOSS were developed by Korg, based on fundamental research that was done at the university. The science of all this work was originally done by Korg R&D and taken back to Japan and developed into the products by Korg Inc. So the main algorithm design was done by our American group, and then reworked into the Prophecy and later the Z1 by Korg Inc, and that lead designer passed away shortly after the Z1 was released.

But the algorithm development and further design continued at Korg R&D (from the original/never released OASYS), and later came into fruition in the OASYS PCI, and then further developed in the OASYS keyboard.

Can you follow that?



So the license issue has never been a factor (other than $$) and Korg did their own work.

Regards,

Jerry

[McHale]

Thanks for the info Jerry..

I'm going to ask the question that everyone is afraid to ask.

Is there ANY likelihood of MOSS returning in any new products in the near future?

I know you can't talk about things that ARE coming, but it'd be nice to put this one to rest.

[jerrythek]

Hard for me to answer (as you rightly assumed), but I imagine that if the code/features/etc were not changed much they could be re purposed into a software version, for example. As long as the internal workings didn't need to be deeply revised then it might be possible. Not likely, not probable, not being promised or even hinted at, but not impossible.

Am I being clear enough in my not hinting, or promising things that are truly not being worked on?


Regards,

Jerry

P.S. Again, this is not a hint or promise that anything will ever be done. (final obligation covered so I am not starting rumors)!

[McHale]

I hope you realize that this thread and your post will go on for ever as evidence that Korg *MAY* or may not be working on a new MOSS product.


Damn. I'm really getting tired of the "Korg's next synth/workstation needs to have MOSS" threads.

Thanks for joining the thread... PROOF that Korg is listening (er, reading actually but you get the point). As always, much appreciated...

[Ahnyxrik]

WE LOVE YOU, JERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jerrythek]

I love me too!!!!

But nothing is being worked on... I promise you that. So just calm down, people!

[cminor]

Don't you all people think at the owners of those korg keyboards?
Does they want too?
I would be very angry if korg would release a VSTi with a keyboard that in the past cost me above 1000 euro.
Because now, if Korg release a VSTi with that keyboard, I will not be able to sell it for a reasonable price.
Because the buyer will think:
"Why the hell should I pay 500-700 euro for a triton when I can pay 100-200 for the VSTi version...
I know it's software, it's not the same thing, but , still....
The hardware price will drop more then you can imagine.
For some will be good, for some will not...
The question is:
will Korg risk with those vsti to lose some fans?

[Vadim]

Don't you all people think at the owners of those korg keyboards?
Does they want too?
I would be very angry if korg would release a VSTi with a keyboard that in the past cost me above 1000 euro.
Because now, if Korg release a VSTi with that keyboard, I will not be able to sell it for a reasonable price.
Because the buyer will think:
"Why the hell should I pay 500-700 euro for a triton when I can pay 100-200 for the VSTi version...
I know it's software, it's not the same thing, but , still....
The hardware price will drop more then you can imagine.
For some will be good, for some will not...
The question is:
will Korg risk with those vsti to lose some fans?

there are lots of software versions of vintage analog synths, vintage drum machines (like tr-808), and the hardware still is expensive and people buy it.

[cminor]

Yes, but "vintage".
I don't know when Triton wil become "vintage" ...
The "antique" TR's (drum machines , not the Korg TR or LE )yes... but still, the MicroX have the Triton Engine, so, when the VSTi Triton or Karma will appear , doesn't the sells go down?
So that is another question.. is Triton and karma a "vintage" already or not ?
What keyboards should be or not made VSTi ?