Is the Korg Kronos the right keyboard for me?

[Sina172]

...

[DocBambs]

What you need is the PAKronos4x, if Korg would make one.

I totally agree. A Kronos with a PA3X engine built in would give you everything.

I see that KARO have produced a set of drum tracks KRS59 which they credit work with the PA3X as an inspiration. It is only $29 too.

DB

[ronnfigg]

Find an arranger keyboard.

[QuiRobinez]

would it be possible to sort of fool karma into acting like an arranger for example.

Plays chorus his trigger for karma to go into brige hits tirgger to go to chorus hits trigger to go back to verse for example?

That's not possible,
what you can do is selecting a different KARMA scene by hand when you play the chorus. But that scene uses the same 4 KARMA modules with the different settings you've setup on that KARMA modules.

[AMR]

would it be possible to sort of fool karma into acting like an arranger for example.

Plays chorus his trigger for karma to go into brige hits tirgger to go to chorus hits trigger to go back to verse for example?

That's not possible,
what you can do is selecting a different KARMA scene by hand when you play the chorus. But that scene uses the same 4 KARMA modules with the different settings you've setup on that KARMA modules.

Being an "open" platform, one should face kronos as having the ability to be able to host anything, it's a matter of coding (hard with a crippled engineering team, easy with a truely opened platform, which the Korg still isn't).

This "arranging" thingy would be a good ideia for a future engine (why don't they open up the code to external development?) - although it would sort of kill their market in the arrangers department and comercial departments tend to outweigh anything else (priority is money, not quality or satisfaction).

A totally programable real-time arranger is a useful production tool in a workstation though, but I digress.

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

[Darmin De'flern]

Thanks for all the intresting replies and thoughts on this great feedback general advice and specifics regarding kronos.

As people said I allready have two arrangers in the G-70 version 3 and Va-7 (Roland) and with a bit of work could use this with midi for arranger type functions etc. I would never get rid of either of them as the VA-7 has some intresting things you can do with vocal sampling and has loads of old school early roland synths etc. While the G-70 looks and plays nice and has some very good styles on it to. By far the best thing though is the guitar emulator for me though as I cant play a guitar (thinking about learning) I can still create rythmic guitar music from folk type accoustic guitar to heavy metal songs which would not have been possible if it wasnt for that keyboard.

I use a Scarlet Focusrite 16-8 and plugged into my Dell laptop (powerfull one at that) and use Reaper as my DAW and extensivly use Amplitube 2 for my rythum guitars from keyboard, bass guitars and for my lead guitars. Roland G-70 and Ampltibue 2 was my work around for not being able to play guitar!

After our discussion here and doing further research I think that I definetly dont want to go get another Roland. The kronos still blows me away and seems to be the best value keyboard on the market in terms of what it can do, how good the sounds are and how customisble and deep it is. On the other hand the Yamaha Motif XF seems to be a good middle ground option between a synth and an arranger type of keyboard so I am a bit torn between them to.

As for Real Band/Band in a Box seems a good fit also for future arranger needs not quite sure on how i would get the exact timing of guitar riffs that I would like on the backing tracks on it by entering one chord but need to do more resarch on that area etc.

So these are my thoughts at the moment in short

1. Keep my current equipment (for midi linkups etc)
2. Get a diffrent product rather than Roland and something that is not just another arranger
3. Decide between Motif XF and Kronos both are synths both have (or will have) access to Karma, Motif XF is easier to use and has some good arranger type functions, Kronos has the deepest and most verstile sound engines on the market. Do more resaerch on both keyboards.
4. Get audiophile version of band in a box/real band.

Thats where I am at the moment guys thanks for your help thus far!

[1jordyzzz]

1 question though...
do you need a weighted keys and a longer keyboard???

[Darmin De'flern]

would it be possible to sort of fool karma into acting like an arranger for example.

Plays chorus his trigger for karma to go into brige hits tirgger to go to chorus hits trigger to go back to verse for example?

That's not possible,
what you can do is selecting a different KARMA scene by hand when you play the chorus. But that scene uses the same 4 KARMA modules with the different settings you've setup on that KARMA modules.

I don't think I explained myself that well there.

From looking at the links you showed me (creating appegios with Karma etc) which were excellent by the way.

based on what I have learnt from those links would it be possible to do the following.

I know I want three diffrent patterns for my song A verse pattern a bridge pattern and a Chorus pattern.

So I go into Karma and play around with it having 3 tracks + drum track for my verse (say drum, bass, R Guitar).

I then save or store that as ballad verse

I do the same for the bridge using the same time signature but a diffrent drum track (or variation) and slightly alter the drum and bass tracks within karma (the patterns of playing)

I then save or store that as ballad bridge

I finally create a chorus part where another drum pattern is used same tempo and add an additional track to the mix so I have in this pattern a drum a bass a R guitar and Poly Synth.

I then save or store that as ballad chorus.

Now it is said you can assign "things" to triggers on the keyboard could I assing those three karma saves to a buttons on the keyboard. Or I could assign them onto the screen in the set list option or however.

So basicly then I could use the screen and/or buttons controller to trigger the changes as I am playing my piece live and record the whole performance (including the karma backing tracks +drum track) and save it as ballad.

I could then go into the sequencer open up my saved ballad song and export each of the saved tracks one at a time to my DAW for final editing and mastering.

The only additional work I would need then would be to create some fills to complete the song.

Am I getting the sequence of events right above to do this on Kronos if I wanted to record and play and entire song live?

One question on Karma looking at your appegiator tutorial. Is it possible to change the apegiator tone to a rythum guitar and rather than restrict the apegiater to a octave and a half restrict it to playing one or two notes and change the speed of how fast it apegiats to create the illusion of a rythum guitarist riffing on the same tone or between two tones (chords).

I hope you dont mind me asking these questions but just trying to get my head wrapped around the way I could use the keyboard if I take the plunge thanks.

[Darmin De'flern]

well considering that you primarily using keyboard with auto accompaniment feature, i suggest you go to yamaha for that...
i have a bad experience using korg's auto accompaniment keyboard (the one i used here on indonesia is PA-50, PA-500, and PA-588... as a pianist myself, i found that the piano sounds is decent.. theyre not bad, but they don't suit to my ears (i prefer yamaha and roland juno like piano sounds, which is brighter).. And much PA-50 users i found here experienced the same problem. Those keyboard (pa-50 especially) tends to degraded overtime. By degradation i mean the systems becomes laggy, the control button is not responsive, and the keybed doesn't report the velocity right, or worse, they didn't respond at all.... i've never tried korg pa3x, and yamaha tyros 4... They are very expensive... however, they provide more function than just being an auto accompaniment keyboard.. but i have a friend whose shop sells the tyros 4, and she tells me that the sounds are outta this world... AND AGAIN, much people in indonesia chooses korg pa-50 instead of yamaha tyros or psr series because their drum kit sounds real, and the bass and synths were punchy on the live situation.... HOWEVER again, with the same price, you could get a korg kronos, which has a SUPERB sounds, but lacks an auto accompaniment fuction.. Being a yamaha PSR s910 user myself (1 level below the tyros 4 but has HUGE price difference), and also being an auto accompaniment player, i'm satisfied with it... It's easy to use, the sounds were GREAT (guitars, flute, strings, brass are outta this world with the super articulation feature), it sounds good in a band or on solo performance live, the style creator is great, the vocal harmony and the mic input and the usb flash mp3 player and recorder works great!! however, the sequencer sucks (it's either real sucks or it's just me who doesn't know how to play it :p).. BUT, as a pianist, my problem is with the piano sounds.. Yes i know i told you it's better than korg's pa series, but it's no option if you are piano soloing (but still works if you do boogie woogie type of thing)

my advice, get a kronos 61 and midi it with your GW 8 if it's possible.. and then, the styles and sounds that you play on the GW 8 will transmit to the kronos.. and bingo!! the kronos is your sound source, but the controller is GW8..
and another advice, get a yamaha...

Depending on how good of a player you are, Yamaha's are disappointing in Chord Recognition. They recognize a lot of the chords (most actually), but compared to Korg, there's just ZERO comparison.

I have all the Korg arrangers and the PA3X (which I'm STILL trying to get here in the US!) is by far THE BEST arranger I have EVER laid my hands on. You hit TWO buttons on the PA3X, play your Chord Progression in realtime, and hit one more button to loop it. All your hands are now free to solo, adjust sounds, edit the styles, etc. WHILE it's playing the Chord progression you just looped. That feature ALONE is worth the price tag for me! Korg NAILED it with the PA3X in ways I can't even begin to comprehend! I can't wait to my my PA3X!

And when it comes to chords here are the comparisons:

I can play an OPEN C Major Chord (C, G, and the E in the next octave up) in full keyboard mode and the PA-Series will recognize it PERFECTLY.

Yamaha. You'll just get a 5th.

Here's another comparison:

If you play an F minor 7 (F, G flat, C, E flat), add the 9th to it (which is G Natural), Yamaha will recognize it. Replace the 9th with a B flat to make it an 11th, it'll recognize that, too. Do BOTH, and it's as if the 9th isn't even there. It'll just read F Min 7 (11th) and that what you hear.

In KORG, if you do the same procedure and combine them, not only will it read BOTH, but you will actually hear both the 9th AND the 11th.

One more:

Play the Open C chord in the first example. Add the dominant 7th an octave higher, then add D (which is the 9th), F# (which the sharped 11th), and A (which is the 13th). Korg will recognize it like it's nothing. It's actually unreal how DEAD accurate Korg is!

Yamaha can't even go past the G!

You can play HUGE, Open ended chords on the Korgs, that are IMPOSSIBLE to play on Yamaha's because the recognition system isn't there like it is on Korg.

And better still, play a D, F and G and Yamaha will see it as a G 7. Play the same notes on the Korg, and its D Minor 11, which brings me to my final comparison:

On the Korg you can play the 7th, and the 11th SEPARATELY. In other words play the F minor 7th chord, like I mentioned above and replace the 7th with the b flat to make it an 11th chord. Yamaha will ADD the 7th for you, but play the Minor 11th chord without the 7th on the Korg, and you won't hear the 7th! It'll just be F minor 11th.

Having said all this, however, Yamaha with the Tyros 4 has a sound that's literally impossible for me to describe how unbelievable it is. $5,000 for a Tyros 4 is a HUGE amount to pay, but that sound is worth SO much more than the price tag!

Both instruments together are a deadly combination in sound and features.

KRONOS is in a league all by itself. The OP already has a fantastic Roland VA-7 arranger. You get a KRONOS and you MIDI the two together, WOW!

You will get a sound and layering possibilities you can't get anywhere else!

Sina

Any thoughts on the Yamaha motif fx?

Yeh I have both the Roland VA7 and Roland G70 version 3!

[Darmin De'flern]

would it be possible to sort of fool karma into acting like an arranger for example.

Plays chorus his trigger for karma to go into brige hits tirgger to go to chorus hits trigger to go back to verse for example?

That's not possible,
what you can do is selecting a different KARMA scene by hand when you play the chorus. But that scene uses the same 4 KARMA modules with the different settings you've setup on that KARMA modules.

Being an "open" platform, one should face kronos as having the ability to be able to host anything, it's a matter of coding (hard with a crippled engineering team, easy with a truely opened platform, which the Korg still isn't).

This "arranging" thingy would be a good ideia for a future engine (why don't they open up the code to external development?) - although it would sort of kill their market in the arrangers department and comercial departments tend to outweigh anything else (priority is money, not quality or satisfaction).

A totally programable real-time arranger is a useful production tool in a workstation though, but I digress.

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

I assume when people go gigging with the Kronos they basicly only setting up the sounds and effects they want for each song and combis and there must be a way then of switching between the diffrent combis/sounds they want if there are changes during each song on the Kronos?

[DocBambs]

I assume when people go gigging with the Kronos they basicly only setting up the sounds and effects they want for each song and combis and there must be a way then of switching between the diffrent combis/sounds they want if there are changes during each song on the Kronos?

I can't help feeling that you need to go and try one out, or find someone with a Korg Workstation (even an M3, Triton, 01/W, etc would help) who can show you around it so you get some idea of the workflow.

I would be very nervous of spending the amount a Kronos will cost with the level of understanding you seem to have.

...knowledge is power!

DB

[Darmin De'flern]

1 question though...
do you need a weighted keys and a longer keyboard???

think my Roland VA7 is non weighted 61 and my G70 is a 71 semi weighted keyboard. I will probably buy a 61 keyboard this time around to save some money I can allways play on my Roland G70 and midi if I need those extra octives in a live recording etc.

[Darmin De'flern]

I assume when people go gigging with the Kronos they basicly only setting up the sounds and effects they want for each song and combis and there must be a way then of switching between the diffrent combis/sounds they want if there are changes during each song on the Kronos?

I can't help feeling that you need to go and try one out, or find someone with a Korg Workstation (even an M3, Triton, 01/W, etc would help) who can show you around it so you get some idea of the workflow.

I would be very nervous of spending the amount a Kronos will cost with the level of understanding you seem to have.

...knowledge is power!

DB

Thats the problem I live in Malaysia and they dont stock high end keyboards in any of the shops i go to. If a shop is lucky enough to have keyboards then they will enveriably be low end introductry keyboards. One of the yamaha shops sells baby grands digital and analouge versions yet their keyboard/synths are low end frustrating.

Only way I can learn is do research watch youtube and ask guys like you who have the keyboards your thoughts!

[1jordyzzz]

hey i think our fate is the same.. i'm on indonesia and there is absolutely nowhere i can try a kronos (maybe on jakarta, but i live on palembang (sumatra))... So basically, i'm buying something that i don't know about..

Ok back again, then my suggestion for you is, get a yamaha psr s910 with a kronos 61... assume that you don't need extra octaves live and you also dont need hammer action... You will get nice pianos and EP (kronos), and also a flexibility of an accompaniment keyboard (psr)...

My next setup (if God allows ) is the kronos 88 and my own psr s910.. i have real experience playing psr s910 in almost any situations imaginable (on wedding ceremony, on a band competition in a super mall, on a ballroom, on an indoor sports hall, on the church, even on the park)... i have to say it's REALLY GOOD (the auto accompaniment function is flexible and the guitar, flute, brass, etc is really good with the super articulation).. i once play brass sounds and when i hit high velocity the brass would shake, or fall, or even glissando itself up, my friends would say "hey jordi, that's really nice brass sounds... wait a minute.. IT'S FROM YOUR PSR?!?!?". the guitar is also exceptionally realistic (it does slides, and the greatest of all, the real sound of the string when we slide our fingers down)...
With korg kronos, i primarily bought it for the pianos, electric pianos and synths... I was about to buy a roland rd 700nx (worth 2300 dollars here), and i was thinking "with 1000 dollars more i will get better pianos and EP's, 5 synth engine, and a sequencer with karma.." Roland rd with it's hefty price tag is really useful for the pianos and EP's, but everything else sounds crap (again, my own experience.. I have performed with roland RD 700, RD 700SX, and RD 700GX) and with no sequencer and bad drum kit.... no way i would spend my money over an RD..

ok then i repeat again.. my advice:
1. Kronos 61, with,
2. Yamaha PSR s-910

Good luck hunting!



Jordi

[1jordyzzz]

Any thoughts on the Yamaha motif fx?

Yeh I have both the Roland VA7 and Roland G70 version 3!

Motif xf is no use for auto accompaniment... It has only basic arpeggiator (not a real time algorithmic as on the kronos), however, it's possible (and possibly better than kronos) with the new karma motif software (requires use of a laptop though..)

However, if you replace kronos 61 with the motif xf 61, then the price gets cheaper....