Kronos Lead Guitar in action ---> music inside

[Dany]

I give up....

[levioter]

I don't get your point !
Is that my post which led you to give up ?



Cheers

[tdwctdwc]

Deron's live synth solo in this youtube clip is obviously not ment to simulate an e-guitar. But however, every ingenuous listener would rather associate this sound with an e-guitar than e.g. with a flute.

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I agree, that synth solo sounds really awesome and i personally did not associate it with an E.guitar at all . It sounds like a pure new "original" sound in its own right .

In my opinion, i don't see a reason why a keyboard player should ever use an electric guitar emulation on his keyboard in a live situation , while he can get a real guitar player .

Here's actually the same song i posted here , performed live by my guitar player, in one of my concerts last year . As you can see, all i used on the keyboards was a pads/electric piano sound and i let the real guitar do the work : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWsVOlEMZlU

[Dany]

I don't get your point !
Is that my post which led you to give up ?



Cheers

Yes it was. If you read all my posts on this thread, you will realize, that I was desperately trying to explain, that Deron Johnson doesn't try to imitate a guitar sound...

But whatever, I am glad that you've enjoyed this great music from these outstanding jazz musicians...

Great quote, but it still needs a sample for the source of all this AFAIK. GIGO. Do you think if Korg could have presented a JH "Plucking strings with teeth" AMAZING guitar sound they wouldn't have showcased it? They can't! Not with what's in there stock anyway...

You are wrong. KORG did showcase exactly that!
I was desperately looking for Steve McNally's Oasys Demo from the Winter NAMM 2006, where he showcases the e-guitar sounds possible with the STR-1 feedback routing.

This is the old Korg website:

http://web.archive.org/web/200611010920 ... D_NO=OASYS

and in the info box in the Video section, you will see the title:
"Operating System Version 1.1 Performance Demonstration
Steve McNally demonstrates the sound capabilities of the OASYS and the new STR-1 Plucked String Expansion Instrument."

Unfortunately, Korg did remove this video from their archives and I didn't find it elsewhere. But I remember, how Steve was playing a great song using an outstanding STR-1 e-guitar sound with distortion and feedback, which is a real feedback: The virtual strings get excited by the feedback from the virtual amplifier! You can even simulate (e.g. with the joystick) your guitar moving in front of the amp, which influences the sound...

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[Dany]

Deron's live synth solo in this youtube clip is obviously not ment to simulate an e-guitar. But however, every ingenuous listener would rather associate this sound with an e-guitar than e.g. with a flute.

-

I agree, that synth solo sounds really awesome and i personally did not associate it with an E.guitar at all . It sounds like a pure new "original" sound in its own right .

In my opinion, i don't see a reason why a keyboard player should ever use an electric guitar emulation on his keyboard in a live situation , while he can get a real guitar player .

Here's actually the same song i posted here , performed live by my guitar player, in one of my concerts last year . As you can see, all i used on the keyboards was a pads/electric piano sound and i let the real guitar do the work : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWsVOlEMZlU

I think we really do have the same "philosophy" regarding synth sounds and playing the synthesizer.

My own "philosophy" is finally the result of the strong influence of the great Joe Zawinul (he played with Miles Davis and was the leader of the famous band "Weather Report").

Thanks for posting the youtube clip with the great performance of your band!

-

[NuSkoolTone]

Great quote, but it still needs a sample for the source of all this AFAIK. GIGO. Do you think if Korg could have presented a JH "Plucking strings with teeth" AMAZING guitar sound they wouldn't have showcased it? They can't! Not with what's in there stock anyway...

You are wrong. KORG did showcase exactly that!
I was desperately looking for Steve McNally's Oasys Demo from the Winter NAMM 2006, where he showcases the e-guitar sounds possible with the STR-1 feedback routing.

This is the old Korg website:

http://web.archive.org/web/200611010920 ... D_NO=OASYS

and in the info box in the Video section, you will see the title:
"Operating System Version 1.1 Performance Demonstration
Steve McNally demonstrates the sound capabilities of the OASYS and the new STR-1 Plucked String Expansion Instrument."

Unfortunately, Korg did remove this video from their archives and I didn't find it elsewhere. But I remember, how Steve was playing a great song using an outstanding STR-1 e-guitar sound with distortion and feedback, which is a real feedback: The virtual strings get excited by the feedback from the virtual amplifier! You can even simulate (e.g. with the joystick) your guitar moving in front of the amp, which influences the sound...

-

It might have had "real feedback" and been an amazing solo patch, but I doubt it sounded like a "Real Guitar". I find it REALLY odd that the patch never found it's way into the Kronos if it was "Demo worthy".

Chances are we have different standards on "just like an e. guitar" sounds like. Though I am curious. Would love to hear it if anyone can find it!

[levioter]

@Dany:
No problem man I totally agree on what you said !
But This solo was really sounding "like" the original guitar solo on "school days" title.
That's why I said that.
But I agree that a keyboard player should find its "specific" sound for soloing like some greta keyboard players like:
Joe Zawinul
Chick Corea
Keith Emerson
Jan Hammer
Jan Johansen
Derek Sherinian
Jordan Rudess

ETC...

So Peace !

Cheers

[Dany]

@Dany:
No problem man I totally agree on what you said !
But This solo was really sounding "like" the original guitar solo on "school days" title.
That's why I said that.
But I agree that a keyboard player should find its "specific" sound for soloing like some greta keyboard players like:
Joe Zawinul
Chick Corea
Keith Emerson
Jan Hammer
Jan Johansen
Derek Sherinian
Jordan Rudess

ETC...

So Peace !

Cheers

I see ...and let's not forget the one and only Herbie Hancock!

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[kronos_timmmy]

I think this again proves that electric guitars on Kronos are not really good. Just MHO, sorry. It just doesn't behave nicely, much less like a real guitar, sounds too smeared when doing note runs, and overall just too synthy overall, not realistic at all.


However, I'll say that playing is nice.

But that´s what we have to remember: This lovely synth is not only a preset-machine - with a little tweaking like this an "unreal" guitar sounds more realistic.

@tdwctdwc your announcement with with STR-sound make me curious

Regards
Tim

[jimknopf]

First of all, I want to thank tdwctdwc for all the effort. We all know that it is much harder to try and achieve something than to critisize the result.

I am sorry that I still think that the Eguitar sounds on the Kronos are NOT (and with not I mean not remotely) working as they should, and in fact the basic onboard HD-1 Eguitar sample material from my view is just really crap in this area (not in other sound areas), no matter how we tweak.

We have to discern two possible kinds of use, not to get confused:
- a) a synth sound used for guitar-like soloing, without trying to fake a guitar or even a guitar player. The master at this kind of of synth playing, by the way, has been Jan Hammer and not Deron Johnson (though he does a nice job as well).
-b) a sampled Eguitar sound with effects used for recording arrangements for a band: here it is useful if the sound is at least somewhat close to what it tries to fake. I had no problems getting such an EGuitar sound on my (otherwise dreadful) Fantom G, and the Kronos does not have one single lousy patch providing that, and not even samples and effects suited for getting one done yourself IMO. The overdrive and distortion effects belong to the weakest Kronos effects from my view anyway: they tend to sound like digital noise too soon and are missing the tube warmth and and creamy slight overdrive which better modelling effect units provide meanwhile.

The key point is not the shredding part: you can shred away with anything from a well done MS20-patch to an overdriven Kronos crap guitar sample. The critical point is how a guitar sound does work, when played as a calm overdriven solo melody: not guitar shredding, but guitar singing.

STR-1 is interesting concerning feedback and other parameteres. On the other hand, I always found STR-1 extremely lacking in warmth and character: the basic sound coming from this engine is stone cold and digital, really unnatural, no matter how you tweak.

@tdwctdwc:
so on one hand, I find it great and fascinating, what you are trying to do and would like to encourage you to go on trying. On the other hand, I still haven't heard that singing overdriven Eguitar sound I would like to use for b) above. I hope you get that this is not meant critical towards you, but rather as a challenge to the Korg development team, which simply hasn't done their homework in this area - in an otherwise overwhelming well done synth, not to forget!

p.s.
tdwctdwc: if you want us others to help tweaking, you could post examples of your efforts at Korgpatches.com nad we could add our own variations.

[Dany]

...I am sorry that I still think that the Eguitar sounds on the Kronos are NOT (and with not I mean not remotely) working as they should...

I think the reason, why some users do not like the Kronos (resp. OASYS) e-guitar sounds, are finally the internal effects. I think they are really great and I love the sounds they give me for my synth sounds.

But I have to admit, if I really need a "hyper-realistic" guitar simulation during studio production, I apply Native-Instruments' Guitar-Rig.

On the other hand, you can apply the Kronos internal effects to a real guitar, as forum member "jasmire" just demonstrated in these clips from this thread:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=72480

Clip1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n7ctQ8qgA8

Clip2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXsQVHpTqUY

But if you want to simulate for example a "John Scofield"-like guitar sound, you will get the much better results with dedicated software like Guitar-Rig, because it's almost impossible to achieve those sounds with the internal Korg effects...at least in my oppinion.

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[jimknopf]

The Kronos overdrive effects show weaknesses not only with guitar sounds, but with keyboard sounds as well. The main advantage of a Nord B3 sound over the Kronos CX3 is the much better Nord overdrive.

Concerning guitar overdrive, even the smallest modern pod boxes offer better overdrive modelling than the Kronos does. So I am not even talking of the expensive upper class effects. I had a weekend with the Axe-FXII of one of my sons. It is incredible how well you can use it with the Kronos, and it not only is two generations of modelling ahead concerning guitar sounds, but it also generates the better Rhodes with slight overdrive, or a fat B3 overdrive. Of course you can not expect that quality in that price range from onboard effects, but at least they should be on modern pod level or the like.

Korg has wonderful reverbs, delays and modulation effects on board of the Kronos (I am a big fan of the Overb for example), and the EPiano stomp-boxes are simply first class, comparing them to the orginals I have here.

But the overdrive is substantially lacking quality, in all variations, including the internal EPiano and CX3 variations. And that is also a big part of the EGuitar sound problem, along with very weak and outdated guitar samples in HD-1.

[Dany]

...But the overdrive is substantially lacking quality...

But it's never too late! Watch this old OASYS promotion clip from Korg at 0:48 Min. where they say: "EXf expansion effects allows you to add new studio quality processes to OASYS..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvmUNlmcmQ

Korg unfortunately never fulfilled this promise for OASYS users , but there is still the chance they might offer some new effects at least for Kronos users in the future...

-

[tdwctdwc]

First of all, I want to thank tdwctdwc for all the effort. We all know that it is much harder to try and achieve something than to critisize the result.

I am sorry that I still think that the Eguitar sounds on the Kronos are NOT (and with not I mean not remotely) working as they should, and in fact the basic onboard HD-1 Eguitar sample material from my view is just really crap in this area (not in other sound areas), no matter how we tweak.

We have to discern two possible kinds of use, not to get confused:
- a) a synth sound used for guitar-like soloing, without trying to fake a guitar or even a guitar player. The master at this kind of of synth playing, by the way, has been Jan Hammer and not Deron Johnson (though he does a nice job as well).
-b) a sampled Eguitar sound with effects used for recording arrangements for a band: here it is useful if the sound is at least somewhat close to what it tries to fake. I had no problems getting such an EGuitar sound on my (otherwise dreadful) Fantom G, and the Kronos does not have one single lousy patch providing that, and not even samples and effects suited for getting one done yourself IMO. The overdrive and distortion effects belong to the weakest Kronos effects from my view anyway: they tend to sound like digital noise too soon and are missing the tube warmth and and creamy slight overdrive which better modelling effect units provide meanwhile.

The key point is not the shredding part: you can shred away with anything from a well done MS20-patch to an overdriven Kronos crap guitar sample. The critical point is how a guitar sound does work, when played as a calm overdriven solo melody: not guitar shredding, but guitar singing.

STR-1 is interesting concerning feedback and other parameteres. On the other hand, I always found STR-1 extremely lacking in warmth and character: the basic sound coming from this engine is stone cold and digital, really unnatural, no matter how you tweak.

@tdwctdwc:
so on one hand, I find it great and fascinating, what you are trying to do and would like to encourage you to go on trying. On the other hand, I still haven't heard that singing overdriven Eguitar sound I would like to use for b) above. I hope you get that this is not meant critical towards you, but rather as a challenge to the Korg development team, which simply hasn't done their homework in this area - in an otherwise overwhelming well done synth, not to forget!

p.s.
tdwctdwc: if you want us others to help tweaking, you could post examples of your efforts at Korgpatches.com nad we could add our own variations.

Very well said and i can't help but agree with you , specifically regarding the ultimate search for the b) sound you mention .

However, i'm gonna spend some more time with kronos today and see what i can come up with , maybe we can find that b) sound .

I'll try to post my pcg findings on my dropbox account or on korgpatches.com .

Regards,

R

[tdwctdwc]

if you want us others to help tweaking, you could post examples of your efforts at Korgpatches.com nad we could add our own variations.

This is all i could come up with for now . Feel free to tweak/add all you want : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31255679/Warm%2 ... guitar.PCG