Kronos-newbie questions: No patch edit in omni-mode? etc.

axs · Post by **axs** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:12 pm

Hi,
Just bought a Kronos. I'm having a harder time than usual (when having bought new synths), finding informative tutorial types of threads and videos. The official Korg video tutorials are very basic...and the manual is loooong.

Thus, if you'll bare with me, I have a couple of questions, just to get me started (I'm planning on reading the manual bit by bit over the next couple of weeks).

Am I right in deducing that you have very limited patch editing capabilities when using the Kronos in omni-mode/sequencer-mode/connected to a DAW? By limited I mean: that you don't have the display with all the parameters like you do in program mode?

Is the editor still as buggy as people have been stating, and can you edit patches more deeply from your DAW, if my previous statement is correct?

If I am correct in assuming that deep editing is not possible in omni-mode how do people work around it? Do you jump in and out of omni-mode to tweak the patch, save, and then go back into omni-mode, for example?

Any comments greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:44 pm

Yes, you don't have access to every single parameter on Program mode (for the specific synth engine) on Seq mode (the mode you're calling "Omni")

You can make certain tweakings directly on Seq mode but if you need access to a parameter which is not available, you may need to edit the Track in Program mode in order to update it (better if you make a copy to avoid side effects on other Combi/Seq which may use the Program). Take in consideration that you decide which Parameters you want to be available for each Track by using the Control Surface, with the Tone Adjust section. Therefore, I would not say your editing abilities are limited and BTW you can record the automation derived of tweaking those controllers while recording.

The Editor has not been updated, and it has not received the best reviews around.

axs · Post by **axs** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:55 pm

MarPabl wrote:Yes, you don't have access to every single parameter on Program mode (for the specific synth engine) on Seq mode (the mode you're calling "Omni")

You can make certain tweakings directly on Seq mode but if you need access to a parameter which is not available, you may need to edit the Track in Program mode in order to update it (better if you make a copy to avoid side effects on other Combi/Seq which may use the Program). Take in consideration that you decide which Parameters you want to be available for each Track by using the Control Surface, with the Tone Adjust section. Therefore, I would not say your editing abilities are limited and BTW you can record the automation derived of tweaking those controllers while recording.

The Editor has not been updated, and it has not received the best reviews around.

Thank you for your reply.
But, ah, that's too bad. Had I known before I bought it, that would have been a deal breaker. Oh well, nothing I can do about it now (bought it used), so I guess I'll use it for one sound at a time or something (I HAVE to be able to see what I'm doing - whether it's tweaking analog synths, soft synths or any other kind of synth. Why would Korg do that? I'm sure there is some logical explanation, though.

Thanks again.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:08 pm

It's not bad. You can actually see how much are you changing the parameters you link with the Control Surface. I think you get enough links on the Control Surface.

The only think you'll indeed lose are the nice graphics/draws with graphical representation of some parameters. Aside of this, there are many parameters you can use.

axs · Post by **axs** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:16 pm

MarPabl wrote:It's not bad. You can actually see how much are you changing the parameters you link with the Control Surface. I think you get enough links on the Control Surface.

The only think you'll indeed lose are the nice graphics/draws with graphical representation of some parameters. Aside of this, there are many parameters you can use.

Oh, ok, so you get a visual - but does it tell you what knob you're turning in your patch? Like knob 7= "LFO1", knob 8= "filter attack" etc. or are you supposed to remember that on patch nr 1738 you routed knob X to parameter Y? Sorry, but I'm not in the studio right now, so I can't test it myself.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:27 pm

Yes, every knob, slider and swith button has a "combo" where you choose which parameter you'll link. Once you've chosen the parameter, the name you chose will appear above the controller.

After doing so, the current value will appear below the controller and lastly you'll see how this value is updated as you move the controller. Additionally, the position of the controller (knobs/sliders) will be clearly showed with a graphic on the screen.

axs · Post by **axs** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:43 pm

MarPabl wrote:Yes, every knob, slider and swith button has a "combo" where you choose which parameter you'll link. Once you've chosen the parameter, the name you chose will appear above the controller.

After doing so, the current value will appear below the controller and lastly you'll see how this value is updated as you move the controller. Additionally, the position of the controller (knobs/sliders) will be clearly showed with a graphic on the screen.

Good, that's a huge relief. I'm still a little bummed, though, because I was planning on just leaving it in SEQ-mode all the time - synced with Logic - and then "thumbing" through programs and tweaking as needed. But I'm sure I'll get used to it. The only real potential problem I see now is if I'm making some really complex soundscape type of music involving several layers that I want to evolve in specific and equally complex ways, which I can't necessarily foresee and therefor won't know what controllers to "pre-route". In that kind of a scenario it would be really handy to have complete and immediate access to all parameters on each layer. But I'm sure I'll learn some tricks as far as what parameters I'll usually need available.

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Have a great day!

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:46 am

axs wrote:Good, that's a huge relief. I'm still a little bummed, though, because I was planning on just leaving it in SEQ-mode all the time - synced with Logic - and then "thumbing" through programs and tweaking as needed. But I'm sure I'll get used to it. The only real potential problem I see now is if I'm making some really complex soundscape type of music involving several layers that I want to evolve in specific and equally complex ways, which I can't necessarily foresee and therefor won't know what controllers to "pre-route". In that kind of a scenario it would be really handy to have complete and immediate access to all parameters on each layer. But I'm sure I'll learn some tricks as far as what parameters I'll usually need available.

If you only work with a sequencer then it's not a problem, if you need to modify a program when working on soundscapes you can switch to program mode and modify that program over there (in solo mode). you can switch back anytime to combi mode to hear how that sound works out in your arrangement. When you are satisfied with the sound just store that sound to a new program and then your done.

the tone adjust function in combi mode works fine when you perform live. Most of the times you adjust the same parameters in a sound, and you can pre-setup the most important parameters per sound in your combi. Also you can route things to the vector joystick and make creative use of the AMS mixer (which can be seen as a very advanced modulation matrix)

So lot's of possibilities for creating soundscapes.

You can also use KARMA modules for modifying soundscapes like CC patterns and even including the use of wavetables.

In one of my video tutorials i show some examples of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXiG_-rdEXA

axs · Post by **axs** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:15 pm

qrobinez wrote:
axs wrote:Good, that's a huge relief. I'm still a little bummed, though, because I was planning on just leaving it in SEQ-mode all the time - synced with Logic - and then "thumbing" through programs and tweaking as needed. But I'm sure I'll get used to it. The only real potential problem I see now is if I'm making some really complex soundscape type of music involving several layers that I want to evolve in specific and equally complex ways, which I can't necessarily foresee and therefor won't know what controllers to "pre-route". In that kind of a scenario it would be really handy to have complete and immediate access to all parameters on each layer. But I'm sure I'll learn some tricks as far as what parameters I'll usually need available.
If you only work with a sequencer then it's not a problem, if you need to modify a program when working on soundscapes you can switch to program mode and modify that program over there (in solo mode). you can switch back anytime to combi mode to hear how that sound works out in your arrangement. When you are satisfied with the sound just store that sound to a new program and then your done.

the tone adjust function in combi mode works fine when you perform live. Most of the times you adjust the same parameters in a sound, and you can pre-setup the most important parameters per sound in your combi. Also you can route things to the vector joystick and make creative use of the AMS mixer (which can be seen as a very advanced modulation matrix)

So lot's of possibilities for creating soundscapes.

You can also use KARMA modules for modifying soundscapes like CC patterns and even including the use of wavetables.

In one of my video tutorials i show some examples of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXiG_-rdEXA

Thanks for the input
Your video sounds nice

Shakil · Post by **Shakil** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:34 pm

This is one of the missing capabilities (program editing from sequencer mode) that are stopping me from purchasing KRONOS. I am used to editing (tweaking) patches from song/sequencer mode for more than a decade on Roland workstations.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:47 pm

I wonder if it possible to write a sort of editor that could do this.

I.e. sending/receiving messages by changing the data of the (upto) 16 programs ... I am sure it should be possible.

Of course it would be a huge task, meaning to implement MIDI communication, editors for all engines.

axs · Post by **axs** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:52 pm

Shakil wrote:This is one of the missing capabilities (program editing from sequencer mode) that are stopping me from purchasing KRONOS. I am used to editing (tweaking) patches from song/sequencer mode for more than a decade on Roland workstations.

Yes, I'm used to having everything completely open ended and tweakable at all times. That's how I have set up my studio - with my analog synths being within reaching distance, each having dedicated tracks on the mixer etc. It would never have crossed my mind that a modern digital synth would have any limitations what so ever in terms av access to parameters.

On the other hand, people have stated that it doesn't pose much of a problem, so I'm excited to see how I experience it. I hope it doesn't lead to me subconsciously avoiding digging deep into it.

But, out of curiosity, anybody know why Korg did it this way? And is there any possibility that a future update could remedy this (what I would consider a) shortcoming?

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:10 pm

michelkeijzers wrote:I wonder if it possible to write a sort of editor that could do this.

I.e. sending/receiving messages by changing the data of the (upto) 16 programs ... I am sure it should be possible.

Of course it would be a huge task, meaning to implement MIDI communication, editors for all engines.

i probably could be done, but i think the problem lies in the fact that you can create a sound that consist of 2 different synth engines. This is different than most other synths that are relying on one synth engine.

So when you create programs like i did on the polysix soundset, you will get a situation where one program uses:
- EXI1: Polysix engine that uses a saw wave that is modulated by AMS sources
- EXI2: Mod-7 engine where a PCM source is routed on the patch panel through FM Sine waveshaped Oscillators.

That one program makes one sound.

Now in a combi i can combine 16 of those kind of programs, where you can't predict upfront what kind of engines people are combining. And what do you do when you route the output of EXI1 in a program to EXI2 in that same program when they are 2 different engines?

In my opinion there isn't an editor that can conveniently edit all these kind of programs on micro level (micro level programming can be done on the program mode itself).

So i think it's a wise descision from korg that they introduced the tone control per timbre. This way you can decide which performance synth editing possibilities you want to control in your combi mode. (everything you have choosen is mapped to the harware controls on your kronos).
This way the sounddesigner can decide which parameter from with EXI engine has to be available in the combi mode.

And don't forget, if you work in a studio on a track you can always open the current sound you are working on in program mode. There you can edit everything on a micro level till you are done and you can return to the sequencer / combi mode af that.

i have another demo on my channel where i show how easy it is to modify sounds with the tone control function during live play in a combi mode (or sequencer mode). That example is done by modifying only a few parameters, but you can do this with every knob you on your kronos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKES-PayurE

Now the best part is , that every tone control modification is stored in your combi. So the original Program sound stays the same (unmodified). This opens lot's of possibilities for creating completely different sounds that are based on the same program sound.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:57 pm

Thank you qrobinez, for the explanation. I will check the youtube video later (can't do that here at my work).

I thought the main problem was to save one program (used in the combi) before being able to go to the next.

My 'idea' was to have a sort of editor for all 16 programs, being able to edit everything and instantly saving changes, so the combi would always refelct the latest changes in total.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:04 pm

michelkeijzers wrote:My 'idea' was to have a sort of editor for all 16 programs, being able to edit everything and instantly saving changes, so the combi would always refelct the latest changes in total.

Yes, that would be great if that was available. (the motif has that, but has an easier synth engine structure setup).

It got me thinking, after seeing the incredible work chrutil did with the al-1 editor we also could create a VST editor for the tone control functions. Because every knob has it's own CC value and the midi channel determines which sound you modify this would solve a lot of problems when using the kronos in a DAW environment.

When you only create a VST for the control knobs you could do almost everything you want in a daw that way. The creation of a VST isn't that hard when you use Synthmaker for instance. There you can draw the layout and knobs and assign the CC information in it and then export that template as a VST.

I simply don't have the time at the moment, but if something like that still isn't available at the end of this year, maybe i will create such an interface. Then we have the in depth editor(s) from chrutil and we can also use a VST for the general performance parameters.