Drum Tracks

[digiplay]

Hi guys!

On a previous Topic, here's what I said:

I LOVE the Kronos, but my MOTIF XF has those wonderful Drum ARPs.

If I could figure a way to make a Kronos Combi have variations of the same beat and seamlessly go from one variation to the next without the beat stopping (on Set List), then I would be in heaven!

I did call Korg Customer Support and they told me that in the Combi Mode, if I switched to a identical Combi that had a variation of the beat, when I switched to that Combi, the beat would stop.

They told me the only way to achieve my goal would be to use Karma on the Combi, and switch between Scenes for variations of the drum pattern.

But as it has been brought to my attention, there are not that many Karma Drum Patterns to choose from (vs the amount of patterns available in the Drum Track Mode).

What I'm trying to do is make demo's of my original songs.

Instead of having just one Drum Pattern going through the entire song, I want to have a Intro Beat, a Chorus Beat, a Solo Beat, etc., and push a button (like on the MOTIF XF) and have it seamlessly go from one Drum Pattern to another, in perfect timing.

Now, as I'm telling you what I want, being the idiot that I am, it just dawned on me that perhaps I can:
1) Use (2) Tracks/Channels on ProTools.
2) Play the Drum Pattern I like.
3) Switch to a variation of that Pattern (which the Drum Track has plenty of) at the appropriate points of the song in realtime.

Can I do this?

Thanks!

[SanderXpander]

If you're already using Protools, why not just program the entire drumpart with fills etc? You can still loop (or copy/paste) bars, there is no need to use Drumtrack at all. From your original question, it sounds like you need this feature (switching drum beats) in a live situation.

[digiplay]

SanderXpander,

You are pretty smart in your comment about it sounded like I need that feature in a live situation!!

The way I write songs (and play them live for my Bandmates) on the MOTIF XF is to have a Performance (with all my splits) going, and change to different variations/ARP's at the appropriate time.

So what I was doing on ProTools was assigning the Drums to Individual Outputs on the XF, going into Track (1) and (2) on ProTools, hit Record, and record the entire songs Drum parts (with the appropriate Drum ARP variations) while monitoring the Keyboard parts I was playing on the keyboard.

One that was done, I basically had a elaborate Click Track/finished Drum Track that I could then build the remainder of the song (Bass/Keyboards/Horns/Strings/etc) on.

[SanderXpander]

Right, well if you can live with just recording it with one pattern, and then editing/elaborating, that would be a solution, right?

[digiplay]

Yes.

But on the XF, it's not really just "one pattern".

The first ARP might be just a Bass Drum on the (1) and (3), and the Snare on (4).

The second ARP might be the Bass Drum on (1) and (3), the Snare on (2) and (4) and a Hi Hat playing eighth notes.

The third ARP might be just like the above second ARP. but with the addition of Congas and the Hi Hat changing to a Ride.

The fourth ARP might be a great fill.

The fifth ARP might be a great ending fill.

If I could get the Kronos to do that live, I'd be in Heaven!

[HardSync]

You can do very effective drum pattern switching live using RPPR (Real Time Pattern Play and Record), but it requires you to use a Song instead of a Combi. Songs have all the stuff that combis have plus extra stuff like RPPR. You shouldn't notice any difference in Set List mode... I think... maybe... but I'm not sure if the patterns will continue to play out when switching to different songs in the set list (hopefully somebody can try it and confirm -- I don't have a Kronos to try it). You don't need to have the sequencer itself running to trigger RPPR patterns, and you can copy in your existing combi into a Song easily enough.

The concept of RPPR pattern triggering is to load up the desired drum track patterns as RPPR patterns (this is not difficult). Assign these patterns to keys and then switch to new patterns on the fly, right when you want them to play. If you have something like a Nanopad, which might be ideal for you in this instance, you could assign the patterns to keys out of the range of your actual keyboard and trigger via the pads, so that you'll never accidentally trigger a pattern from the keyboard.

Check out the RPPR stuff in the Kronos Operation Guide first.

[digiplay]

Interesting!

Let me make sure I understand.

I take a existing Combi, say with (3) splits, and copy it to a Song.

Come up with (5) Drum Track Patterns, all variations of the same basic beat, load them up as RPPR's, and assign them to (5) different keys in a location that I am not likely to trigger them accidentally (say the highest (5) keys on my keyboard), or, assign the Patterns to keys outside my Keyboards range, and trigger the appropriate Pattern variation, at the proper time, from the Nanopad.

That will work fine if my original song does not have to change to a different song/Combi using Set List, and if I can at least do this, I will be in Heaven!

The part we're not sure about if is one of my songs uses different slots in the Set List (the Intro, Verse, Chorus, etc).

We don't know if when I increment up to the next slot (say go the the Chorus), if the Patterns will continue to play.

If that's the case, then it won't work if my original song uses different Combis (which I have to convert to different Songs).

Am I correct up to this point?

[SanderXpander]

I get how the XF works, and how the Kronos is more limiting in a live setting. What I don't get is how this is a problem if you're making a demo using Protools. But I don't have to get it, it's your demo
Good luck, RPPR could def be a good solution for you!

You can switch tracks within a song using setlist btw, so as long as you only need 16 parts you can stay within one song even with multiple sounds.

[QuiRobinez]

Yes.

But on the XF, it's not really just "one pattern".

The first ARP might be just a Bass Drum on the (1) and (3), and the Snare on (4).

The second ARP might be the Bass Drum on (1) and (3), the Snare on (2) and (4) and a Hi Hat playing eighth notes.

The third ARP might be just like the above second ARP. but with the addition of Congas and the Hi Hat changing to a Ride.

in most cases this can be done with the KARMA Drum pattern GEs, those have three switches where you can switch on / off parts of the pattern. By assigning those on/off settings to scenes you can switch between those patterns,

But it doesn't stop there, you have lots of KARMA parameters to influence the drum pattern (even random drum patterns). So since you have 8 scenes you can build your song with a maximum of 8 drum pattern (which you can always change during your performance.

The fourth ARP might be a great fill.

The fifth ARP might be a great ending fill.

not possible in the traditional keyboard way. But what you can do is more or less the same as on a Motif, there are 4 and 5 just small variations on the first three (although they are really fills). In the Kronos you have to create the variations yourself in a scene by adjusting the KARMA parameters. For instance i have some combis where scene 8 is a fill pattern. In that case i modified the KARMA patterns to create a busy pattern by selecting a different pattern variation (slider 2) with for instance some snare repetition (slider 7).

[HardSync]

The part we're not sure about if is one of my songs uses different slots in the Set List (the Intro, Verse, Chorus, etc).

We don't know if when I increment up to the next slot (say go the the Chorus), if the Patterns will continue to play.

If that's the case, then it won't work if my original song uses different Combis (which I have to convert to different Songs).

Am I correct up to this point?

Yes. If I had a Kronos I would test it, but for now I can only suggest to try it by setting up a song with one RPPR pattern and adding the song to a set list to see what happens. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Certainly worth trying, though.

[digiplay]

I get how the XF works, and how the Kronos is more limiting in a live setting. What I don't get is how this is a problem if you're making a demo using Protools. But I don't have to get it, it's your demo
Good luck, RPPR could def be a good solution for you!

SanderXPander,

The bottom line is that I truely WANT the Kronos to be my #1 Keyboard and eventually replace my XF.

I am the one at fault for not spending more time trying to figure out if and how the Kronos will do what I need it to do.

Because I know the XF well enough to make it do my Drum Tracks exactly what I want them to do (which is nothing groundbreaking, btw), that's why I keep using it instead of the Kronos.

That being said, if I can/could make a demo with the Kronos Drum Tracks/Patterns doing the variations the same way the XF does them, then I will never look back at the XF.

Thanks!

[SanderXpander]

It's just what I mean to say is there is no reason to use the drum patterns in such a limiting way unless you need it for a live performance. If you can send and record midi to/from Kronos, you can create a much better sounding demo by programming the drums from Protools and just sending the midi notes to the Kronos. If you like several of the Kronos patterns, you can even record them separately in Protools, copy/paste them together, edit for fills, breaks, small variations, accents, etc.
None of which you could easily do with the Kronos. Or the XF, for that matter.

If you really want to trigger the patterns "live", RPPR seems the way to go. The patterns will only keep playing if you stay within the same song, but you can still switch which channels you are playing using setlist.

Good luck!

[cynkh]

Based on what you've said about original compositions for the drum parts I highly recommend learning the RPPR functionality in song mode. It's extremely flexible for splitting across the keyboard and if need you can even put the patterns on keys outside of your current range (depending on your keyboard model) and use an external MIDI/USB keyboard or drum pad to trigger those (or just put the RPPR patterns on a separate MIDI channel for more flexibility).

If you've got a combi in mind to use with the part you can just copy the song settings from the combi with the drop-down menu and you're in business. If there are channel slots left over you can even load in a fairly busy combi and add a few drum channels for the RPPR parts (or use RPPR for other elements).

Also, if you copy or record what you've got from your software sequencer into the Kronos you can simply convert a MIDI track to an RPPR pattern.

Good luck and enjoy!

[digiplay]

SanderXpander,

A few more things!

I didn't want to bore you on my past Posts, so I didn't tell you my whole situation.

But I have decided I might as well bore you now !

In my (3) piece Band, I am the creative one (songwriting wise) and I know nothing about ProTools.

The (3) piece band only wants to do covers (as close to the original song as possible), but I want more out of music than just playing someones else's Song note for note (I feel the Band that wrote/performed the song already did a pretty good job at that), plus I've got TONS of originals in my head waiting to go to my fingers!

So our Guitar Player (who is not creative, songwriting wise), who knows ProTools just enough to be able to record/edit my demos, has graciously agreed to play Guitar on my originals, and record them on ProTools.

What about your Drummer, why don't you use him, you might ask?

Therein lies the problem. When I tell him what type beat is needed for any of my originals, he always says he doesn't hear it that way, and he refuses to play it the way I, (the Song Writer) hears it in my head.

I also am a Drummer (and Bass Player) as well (I play Drums in another cover Band and Bass in another cover band). I am not a fancy/Stewart Copeland style Drummer, and the only thing I do well is keep very steady time and give a deep pocket groove that the Bass Player can do his thing around.

So I do know something about playing Drums.

That being said, I'm not a tyrant, and I am a team player.

So whenever I played a original Song for the (3) piece Band, I always asked our Drummer to play some beat that I possibly haven't thought of, but he always come up with a total different beat/groove that, in my opinion, takes the Song in a direction that I don't like (my originals are more Pop oriented), and he tries to make it a Polka or a Samba or The Police (who is his favorite Band) type song.

All I want is a groove type beat, but he says he will not play it that way.

So this is why my Guitar Player and I have decided to record my originals on the side, without our Drummer.

This is where the MOTIF XF came in, as it didn't argue, refuse to play, fight me constantly, what I wanted it to play!

Let me interject quickly and say if I had enough money:
1) I would have a totally different rig if I played in a Band where I wasn't the Bass Player and the Keyboard Player (I think all I would need would be a Nord Stage 2).
2) I would have a totally different rig if I was just going to record.
3) I don't have enough money, so I have to have a rig that will let me play live and record.

So now I will get to my point (it's about damn time I'm sure you'll say!!!) and question.

If I can use ProTools to program the drums, it sounds like you're saying that for my Drum Tracks, possibly I should use Software for the Drums, as there are some Libraries available that surely have better Drum Samples , as well as different genre Drum Patterns, than even the Kronos (and XF) have.

If so, I could at that point use the Kronos for everything else (Electric Pianos, Organs, Horns, Strings, etc).

Hell, I might even look at buying a 13" Mac Book Pro, putting ProTools on it, and having only one keyboard, the Kronos!

That way I would have the same rig for playing live and could easily use it to record my original songs.

What do you think?

[digiplay]

Based on what you've said about original compositions for the drum parts I highly recommend learning the RPPR functionality in song mode. It's extremely flexible for splitting across the keyboard and if need you can even put the patterns on keys outside of your current range (depending on your keyboard model) and use an external MIDI/USB keyboard or drum pad to trigger those (or just put the RPPR patterns on a separate MIDI channel for more flexibility).

If you've got a combi in mind to use with the part you can just copy the song settings from the combi with the drop-down menu and you're in business. If there are channel slots left over you can even load in a fairly busy combi and add a few drum channels for the RPPR parts (or use RPPR for other elements).

Also, if you copy or record what you've got from your software sequencer into the Kronos you can simply convert a MIDI track to an RPPR pattern.

Good luck and enjoy!

Thanks cynkh!