Kronos vs Komplete (and then some)

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:07 am

So, I'm one of the most vocal defenders of the Kronos over software in a live situation. I have used MainStage 2 for a band a couple of years ago and while that is a great program I never liked the incoherence of the different sounds. Also, that band required a max of 20 different "setups" and was already stretching the limits of my laptop then.

However, for a gigging pro there are obviously great advantages using a software solution - portability being one, and being able to prepare sounds and setups from your laptop on the couch is also great. Of course there are also many great sample based libraries, plus user sampling is a lot easier if you have a decent sampler.

I do own a lot of software (Komplete 9 Ultimate, Maschine, OBX-ProII, all the Cakewalk stuff, a bunch of random others) so I feel it should essentially be possible to replace all of the sounds I currently use with a software solution.
To that effect, I downloaded a trial version of Brainspawn Forte, which seems to be the leading solution right now, unless you want to also play backing tracks (which I don't). If I can get it to work really well, I may buy the full version.

I would like to use this thread to document some of my experiences and also ask for others who might have done or are considering the same. This is not about the software sounds specifically, I already use all of them in a recording/production situation. I mean specifically how they work in a demanding live environment, needing quick access to a lot of different sounds and instant switching between sounds.

So far;
1. Literally within five minutes (inserting one synth and fudging around with some Waves VST fx) I made Forte crash. I'm staying away from Waves for now, which sucks but thankfully I have good alternatives (Fabfilter stuff works fine for instance)
2. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I don't think Forte likes Kontakt a lot. If I have a bunch of libraries loaded (e.g. Scarbee Rhodes, Alicia's Keys, Session Strings Pro) it seems to take a lot of time to switch between scenes, even if all that changes is a couple of mute switches and the keyrange. For instance switching between a piano and strings layer and a piano and strings split takes time even though they're the same sounds layered differently. More specifically, "sometimes" it complains when I try to save my setup, saying Kontakt doesn't report its setup size correctly and this may corrupt the rack. This would make the whole concept unusable.
3. The sound of Scarbee plus Overloud Vintage Keyboard FX is great and I could definitely use that live. Alicia's Keys is good too. Session Strings Pro is less good for playing live, the Kontakt scripting messes with it too much and I can't seem to play any decent sounding lines. Nearly all the Kronos strings are more usable live. I'll probably have to use a different library.

STATUS: I'm never taking this out live as it is. 100% Kronos for me.
More to follow...

JeffB63 · Post by **JeffB63** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:38 am

I used to use Forte and it did have issues with Kontakt.

I now use Cantabile Performer and have done for a couple of years.

When Forte 3 came out I bought a license and upgraded but so far I've stuck with Cantabile.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:32 pm

That's good to know, thank you! Cantabile works well with Kontakt then?
And specific things you can do in one but not the other? (apart from backing track playing)

geoelectro · Post by **geoelectro** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Hmm, I did the opposite. I had Komplete 7, Omnisphere and Native Instruments Kore 2. All worked well but I was able to keep everything setup at Church. My new Church meets in a school where we have to vacate the property every week. Not wanting to setup and tear down the computer stuff every week I bought the Kronos.

There were a few sounds I used in Omnisphere that I still needed so I sampled them into the K. Never looked back...

Geo

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:09 pm

Well I'm definitely not about to "make the switch". It's just something I'm trying out as an experiment. I figure if I can "duplicate" my current sound and feature set, it's worth investing the 150 or so for a good host. I already have a fast laptop, interface and all the other software I should need.

Since this topic/discussion comes up from time to time I figured I'd give it a more serious effort and see where it gets me. And those who are wondering about this might get something out of it.

MoonMusic · Post by **MoonMusic** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:52 am

I can tell you from past experience it's too frustrating to work on computers that crash a lot so figure out what is causing it or komplete is never going to work for you....What I got out of the box is working pretty good but some of my home made samples from Kontakt 2 or 3 era is crashing in Kontakt 5....After spending a few nights trying to figure it out, I decided to just not use them.....They were just some rompler patch samples anyway....moon

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:28 am

Really the Forte/Kontakt combination just seems to be less than ideal. It's a pretty "clean" Kontakt install with only the NI Libraries from K9U so far. Cantabile seems to be fine with it so far. Cantabile won't recognize my Waves plugs at all though. Apparently it can't do plugins that live in a shell. There are some suggestions floating around about bridging them with jBridge to make them into individual plugs, but I'm not sure I want them live that much just yet. I had an issue with the bridged version of OPXII-Pro (the only 32-bit exclusive plug I have) but it worked fine when I pointed Cantabile to the actual 32-bit plug and let it decide for itself how to bridge it. jBridge is required for this I think.

I only made a very very basic setup so far and haven't tried any switching yet. More to come.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:00 pm

Not that I really need to, but if I want to use PolySix (which I currently use a lot) and some MS20 etc, I could get the Korg Legacy collection. But it seems I can either
a. Pay 100 bucks to upgrade from my M1 Legacy LE that was apparently included with my NanoPad 2 (?), or
b. Pay 200 bucks for a complete license, or
c. Buy a MicroKey 61 in which case the entire legacy collection is bundled for free (?!)

Does anyone know if that bundled legacy collection is entirely identical? And not tied to the board or anything? Seems crazy pricing. I really don't need another midi board, let alone a 61 key one, but if it's only 36 bucks more than the Legacy Collection upgrade I could just donate it to a friend or something.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:27 pm

With the references to the muse products I wonder how much more stable some of your software would be if such a device was used. Just a thought not a suggestion to run out and buy a $$$$ piece of hardware, or derail the thread but perhaps it would be better then running everything through you laptop or desk top computer.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:22 pm

As a reference, Ableton has never crashed on my system. Never, in two years. Windows never crashed until I tried to solve a chipset driver in a really dumb way. I really don't think my system is the issue.

That said, I'm definitely not taking this idea out on the road (if ever) until I'm convinced it's stable. The only reason to try this is because I have all the stuff already except for a good live VST host. If it means buying a Receptor or something like that I will call the project failed and Kronos king. Not in the least because I would need to buy a $2500+ model to get near to my laptop specs.

EDIT:
Right now, Cantabile doesn't want to save/load presets for my Vintage Keyboards FX plug. Which means I would need to load and bypass several versions in order to have different Rhodes sounds. Lame.

JeffB63 · Post by **JeffB63** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:23 pm

I've been using computers on stage for some 10 years now and love the flexibility I get from doing so.

The trick is to test, test and test again.

If you get even the slightest problem with the setup at home you can guarantee thet it will come and bite you on the arse on stage!

I ruthlessly hunt down the plugins that cause problems and chuck them out, no matter how much they cost me.

And if you update your host software or plugins then thoroughly test the system again.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:47 pm

Thanks, yeah I'm kinda bummed about my Waves bundle not working, but most of them are more for production anyway. The Vintage Keyboard FX thing is more of an issue, they make up half the sound of the Rhodes and not being able to use my best sounds almost defeats the point of trying this.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:11 pm

Sorry Sanderxpander not suggesting a gear purchase bu as you said this debate has come up before and if someone wanted a very reliable set up maybe a hardware host with laptop would be a much more reliable solution, not neccesarily cheaper, obviously.

As a newb and with everyone's suggestions here a few years ago I almost went the software route but there is just something about a hardware board, right there in your face. I wouldn't suggest that is better but sometimes our decisions are as much emotional as they are functional. Personally I now want both hardware and software, is there no end to the gear lust? Sorry off topic. Interesting to see how this all turns out for you! Thanks for sharing.

MoonMusic · Post by **MoonMusic** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:57 am

Maybe try Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 VEP5 ?

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/497/1685/1990/1999/1688.htm

I used something from Steinberg years ago for a vst player but like everything else they make, they quit supporting it.....Anyway, I thought about looking into the VEP5 for a VST host before I ended up going with the Muse Research.....May or may not be an option......moon

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:02 am

Bertotti wrote:Sorry Sanderxpander not suggesting a gear purchase bu as you said this debate has come up before and if someone wanted a very reliable set up maybe a hardware host with laptop would be a much more reliable solution, not neccesarily cheaper, obviously.

As a newb and with everyone's suggestions here a few years ago I almost went the software route but there is just something about a hardware board, right there in your face. I wouldn't suggest that is better but sometimes our decisions are as much emotional as they are functional. Personally I now want both hardware and software, is there no end to the gear lust? Sorry off topic. Interesting to see how this all turns out for you! Thanks for sharing.

You're quite right, of course, and no need to apologize at all. I believe I do have all the gear right now that someone who is considering a live software solution could use. If it turns out really well I may still get a dedicated rig, though I'll still more likely just slap together a Haswell based mini-ATX rig myself than buy some overpriced branded solution. Actually, that is not a bad idea, I could go Hackintosh fairly easily and so far I prefer Mainstage to what I've seen on Windows based solutions. Of course, I'd have to get Audio Unit versions of all my plugs... /sigh.

Gotta give the PC way more effort first, although it's proving much more painful than I thought it would, based on my Mainstage memories, even on the basic level.

Moon, VEP5 doesn't really seem to be made as a live host so much as a network mixing solution? It can host instruments but it's very unclear how you'd set up a bunch of different sounds/layers and switch between them on the fly. Do you have any actual experience with it?

STATUS: A long way from giving up, but gaining more respect for Kronos' feature set and stability. Just compiling a list of VST fx (chorus/reverb/etc) that work is proving difficult!