Kronos X or PA 3 X?

[kenackr]

It's about time for me to add another instrument and I'm seriously stuck choosing between 2 candidates: a PA3 X (or other) arranger or a Kronos X.

The ultimate goal is song creation, not playing live in a venue. My thought is to have a tool that enables me to craft the bones of a song more quickly, even if I have to later transport it in some fashion to the Oasys or a Kronos at least via midi tracks in Digital Performer 8.

On the one hand, I've never had an arranger, but the concept that the backing tracks are already down and one can noodle around with developing melodies intrigues me. It's not that I can't develop backing tracks, I've been doing that for years.

What I find with the Oasys is that many ideas are sparked from Karma combies that form a suitable basis as backing which lets me focus more on adding melody.

One of the things that concern me about arrangers: is the sonic fidelity comparable to the Oasys or Kronos? I suspect not and that might be a deal breaker for me, but maybe not if I'm going to be using the midi tracks developed on the arranger in DP8 that can then drive either the O or K.

Another thing is how much variability is there in the "rhythm section" when you might want to punctuate it with gaps instead of sounding like a relentless metronome? (think more like Karma) I'm talking a top of the line unit like a Pa3x, not an entry level one.

Regarding the Kronos X, it seems to have a much larger availability to import new sounds than the Oasys does, which is always good. What I don't know is how difficult it is to combine it with the Oasys as Mike Conway has done. Have there been any significant changes in Karma on it or are significantly more Karmafied combies available for it?

I realize that at some point the Oasys will die and then I'll be forced to move to the Kronos X or whatever takes it place.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy both an arranger & a Kronos X at the same time.

I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on which unit to go with.

[GregC]

It's about time for me to add another instrument and I'm seriously stuck choosing between 2 candidates: a PA3 X (or other) arranger or a Kronos X.

The ultimate goal is song creation, not playing live in a venue. My thought is to have a tool that enables me to craft the bones of a song more quickly, even if I have to later transport it in some fashion to the Oasys or a Kronos at least via midi tracks in Digital Performer 8.

On the one hand, I've never had an arranger, but the concept that the backing tracks are already down and one can noodle around with developing melodies intrigues me. It's not that I can't develop backing tracks, I've been doing that for years.

What I find with the Oasys is that many ideas are sparked from Karma combies that form a suitable basis as backing which lets me focus more on adding melody.

One of the things that concern me about arrangers: is the sonic fidelity comparable to the Oasys or Kronos? I suspect not and that might be a deal breaker for me, but maybe not if I'm going to be using the midi tracks developed on the arranger in DP8 that can then drive either the O or K.

Another thing is how much variability is there in the "rhythm section" when you might want to punctuate it with gaps instead of sounding like a relentless metronome? (think more like Karma) I'm talking a top of the line unit like a Pa3x, not an entry level one.

Regarding the Kronos X, it seems to have a much larger availability to import new sounds than the Oasys does, which is always good. What I don't know is how difficult it is to combine it with the Oasys as Mike Conway has done. Have there been any significant changes in Karma on it or are significantly more Karmafied combies available for it?

I realize that at some point the Oasys will die and then I'll be forced to move to the Kronos X or whatever takes it place.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy both an arranger & a Kronos X at the same time.

I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on which unit to go with.

original song creation or copies of exisiting, pop tunes ?

i like to create my own tunes and also rearrange exisiting tunes . i find the Kronos/karma w/nanopad to be a home run. obviously, one can lock in existing tunes with midi files/sequencer or buy/find backing tracks.

korg has also released additional combis krs04/05. very inexpensive and greatly useful.

you might write out a comparison, pros/cons , on the 2 boards. i cant speak to the PA3.

in addition, there is the usual speculative buzz about the next great workstation Jan 2014. even so, the kronos is a fabulous keyboard.

[pedro5]

Without comparing the PA3X to any other particular arranger type keyboard.....
Have you considered getting the Kronos and buying a simpler(lower cost) arranger as well ?

I've already got a Kronos,but found a need for an arranger keyboard to help me with basic accompaniment composing etc.
Luckily,able to afford the PA900,in my case...which will soon join the Kronos.
I had considered the other PA versions prior to the final choice,but because the PA900 has so many added functions,I've stretched the budget,accordingly.....
My intention is to use the Kronos voices for most songs.......if the onboard ones on the PA900 aren't suitable.

So,in your situation,perhaps it may be worth looking at some of them,or even a different brand.

Although the Kronos may...or may not be the best instrument for quick composition creation.....it does have a lot going for it in other ways and certainly can become an useful creative tool.
With practice,I'm sure the ease of use will flow more readily,over time.
It can be a steep learning curve for some of its functions,but for many owners the rewards are well worth the effort.
(Others have simply given up trying,though.....probably due to wanting instant results without much user input etc).

Despite having current fault problems.....I'm quite pleased with the instrument overall(not ready to abandon it,just yet...) and will be even happier when it's fully repaired.

Good Luck with your choice.

Best Wishes.

[Bertotti]

FWIW let me add a hacks POV, currently I find my own playing limitations holding me back more then the Kronos. I also was looking at an arranger of some sort but having never had one I wonder how much I would actually like it. I have looked at a lot of videos of arrangers not for tone but use. I here a lot of the same back up over and over Because of that I bought the Karma software instead. Wow what lot to learn on top of the Kronos but it seems it is much more versatile to me. I do find I have to create the Karmafied back up first them work on melodies but that's ok for me. Sadly, again my own playing is my downfall not the tools. But perhaps the Karma software route may be more flexible for you as well. Nevertheless I do occasionally get the urge to spring for a micro arranger, for me it seems like a less substantial investment to see if I would mesh with the arranger concept.

Have you looked into any tablet or pc arranger software? Just curious.

Good luck!

[ed_f]

I actually have a different opinion here. It you want an aid to write songs - I would say an arranger will get you there faster and make more sense.
I love the Kronos... but, just scan this forum for how many times people want things like, auto-"something", fills, breaks, song structure, etc. - and in the end the verdict tends to be "you should have gotten an arranger, not a Kronos"

KARMA is super powerful and I am amazed at the things it can do, but again - check the forum. It is complex and takes time to do the things it is made to do, which is not act like an arranger. I have been able with some work find ways to pull off arranger like tricks that people have asked for but, if you are in the creative process, you don't really want to stop and figure that out in the middle.

It seems what you want to do is what arrangers are made for.

[GregC]

I actually have a different opinion here. It you want an aid to write songs - I would say an arranger will get you there faster and make more sense.
I love the Kronos... but, just scan this forum for how many times people want things like, auto-"something", fills, breaks, song structure, etc. - and in the end the verdict tends to be "you should have gotten an arranger, not a Kronos"

KARMA is super powerful and I am amazed at the things it can do, but again - check the forum. It is complex and takes time to do the things it is made to do, which is not act like an arranger. I have been able with some work find ways to pull off arranger like tricks that people have asked for but, if you are in the creative process, you don't really want to stop and figure that out in the middle.

It seems what you want to do is what arrangers are made for.

"One of the things that concern me about arrangers: is the sonic fidelity comparable to the Oasys or Kronos? I suspect not and that might be a deal breaker for me"

that seems to be a priority ? I don't know the PA3 . for example, the Kronos has incredible pianos. Thats priority 1 for me.

I am not sure what ' sonic fidelity ' is. I like the realism, programming and depth of the various instruments on the Kronos. I could not settle for less, for example.

going along with what ed sort of suggested. I spend quite a bit of time getting parts arranged on the Kronos. If you like all the arranger features, it sounds like you can save some time putting tunes together.

[kenackr]

pedro5,

Thanks for the suggestion!

I haven't considered the lower level arrangers, but you make a good point and perhaps I should. I tend to want to get the best tool for the job, but when I don't have the experience with that tool, like an arranger, it makes me want to overshoot so I don't look back with regret.

With an Oasys 88 in my studio, I'm well aware of the learning curve which I'm still working on.

Thanks for the input, it's valuable.

[kenackr]

Grec C,

Thanks for the reply, I need all the help I can get.

I do original song creation that includes pop sounding tunes but also world related things that don't seem to fit in any tune category. For instance, working on one right now called Simba, a lion hunt. So it's all over the map.

Did you mean Jan 2015 for the next great thing? The Kronos X hasn't been out all that long, but maybe Korg feels it needs to keep things coming quickly.

[kenackr]

ed-f,

Thanks for the reply.

Karma is certainly an amazing thing! Stephen Kay is, IMO, a genius. I keep learning a little bit at a time about it and even have the KO software for it. For me, it's about finding the time.

So far, it seems that if I find a groove that appeals to me, I'm off to the races on crafting a tune. The muse works in mysterious ways!

[pedro5]

kenackr,

Thanks you for replying to my post and also individually to the other contributors.

Good to find useful suggestions and feedback on this topic.

By coincidence,I also bought the Karma software(like Bertotti and others have)…..but as yet not really tried it out.
My own fault for not doing so,of course and I may be missing something magical,but for the moment the learning part is a little too much to take onboard.

Obviously I shall make a start one day…..and discover the gems that can be created.
The onboard Karma on the Kronos is also a future project to get into,same with the sampling.
There's no real rush for me to do so as other planned projects have a priority.

I need something more basic,ready made accompaniments etc to begin with and also it's time to replace an old keyboard that's past its usefulness.
(That's my excuse for an upgrade….anyway).

As said,I've chosen a PA900 for my needs having originally considered the mini version,then the PA600,which I came very close in buying,but following a slight hesitation, the PA900 was released,which seems a much better model for me(at a higher cost,though).
Although there are other brands available,I've decided that the PA series more suitable for my needs.

Currently my preference is with composing classical music,using some of the Karo sound set,but I also want to play around with various rhythms/accompaniment for jamming along with,but without creating the backing tracks from scratch.

Good Luck……..I'm sure you will make a final choice that will be right for you.

Best Wishes.

[Pepperpotty]

I asked a really similar question a few years ago when I was looking to buy my first Korg board. I was choosing between the PA800 and the M3. At the time I chose the PA800 because I was used to arranger keyboards and the thought of a workstation was somewhat daunting.

For me personally, I made the wrong choice. I like to create my own songs and whilst the PA800 allowed me to do that, the songs never really sounded like my own and I wouldn't have been happy sharing them with anyone.

I played on my PA800 very little in the 3 years that I had it and I just couldn't seem to get inspired to play it at all.

So, a few months ago I decided to buy a Kronos instead. I'll start by saying that I am pretty sure that I will never buy another arranger keyboard again.

Yes it's a lot of learning, but if you're used to the Oasys then you should find it easier than some. As far as being able to craft your own songs, the only limitation is your imagination. Certainly I have spent more time playing my Kronos in the few months that I have had it than I ever did with my PA800.

I'm learning bits gradually and I find it much more intuitive than my PA800 ever was.

I think that it's very much a personal preference. If you're used to the Oasys then you'll be aware of what to expect from the Kronos. If you buy the PA3X then you will definitely be able to create your songs quicker than you would with a Kronos. But if they will be of a quality that you will want to share with other people is for you to decide.

Pep.

[karmathanever]

Please see my response to your similar post in the PA3X forum:-

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=90656

Pete

[musicsound]

add a used PA2Xpro to the Kronos !

[kenackr]

Pepperpotty,

Thanks for your comments. Lots to think about in your post.

Would I guess correctly that your goal was NOT to perform locally as a small act?

It seems to me that is their primary function and intended purpose and perhaps other uses benefit less than live performance of cover tunes.

The word "arranger" may be throwing me off the track too. That's not to say that one couldn't write & develop a song on one, I'm sure it can be done. But as you point out, the result may not be what you were dreaming of in its totality.

For me, the interplay of a rhythmic groove is tightly keyed to a good melody.

Just out of curiosity, what's the used market like for top level arrangers? Did you sell yours?

[Pepperpotty]

Initially me and a friend were going to start a band, but that never materialised. It was never my intention to be a one man band but I think that the arranger keyboards are ideal for that.

My Uncle has a PA3X and he does gigs in social clubs and the board is great for something like that. There are lots of styles that sound like famous songs so if you want to do cover tracks then it would be perfect.

I think that Korg keyboards keep their value pretty well. I got considerably less for my PA800 than I had anticipated. I had seen them go for around £1000 just before Christmas but I was only able to get £700 for mine. Still a good price when you consider that the PA800 is now 8 years old and it's top selling price was £1600.