My Korg Triton Extreme appears to be out of tune?

[Tallmaleuk]

Hi everyone,

I have just experienced a strange problem. I have discovered that my Korg Triton Extreme synthesizer appears to be out of tune. Is this possible? And what can I do to fix this issue? Step by step instructions would be great.

Is it a simple case of re-installing the software back to its factory settings? And if so would I lose songs I have written on the SD Card which is loaded into the Korg Triton?

Or is there another solution that might be better to fix this issue?

I only noticed this problem when trying to play over a loop in Logic Pro X. The loop is written in A sharp but I added to a song written in C Major so it should automatically fit into that key and become a C Major loop but when I tried playing over the loop in C Major I found it was definitely out of key. In the end I worked out that the Korg Triton Extreme`s A Flat scale was in key with Logic Pro X`s C Major scale.

Any tips will be gratefully received.

Many thanks.

[SanderXpander]

I don't know exactly what you tried with Logic but A minor is the relative minor to C major so yes, those scales are supposed to have the same notes. It sounds to me as if something hasn't gone right with your loop.

[billbaker]

You can calibrate tuning under the global menu to A=440 Hz, which is the standard for most instruments, applications and software synths.

Be aware that other things can effect tuning:

Scale - using non-standard scales, of which a number are provided including pure, untempered, historical and regional/ethinc will give you a different-than-expected result.

MIDI - some sequences contain a "set-up" or "re-set" string of commands that can remain in effect after the sequence is complete.

Hardware - malfunctions in the pitch modulation can cause the pitch to not return to "zero" or un-effected mode -- the pitch will always be a little off after each pitch bend.

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Without knowing the true and original key of the loop in question, saying that it is in A# (Bb) is as arbitrary as saying your Triton is out of tune when you pay with it. I don't trust the tuning of loops as such since you don't know how well the original was tuned or what re-pitching the sample does to overall tuning.

A# minor is relative minor of C# Major, not C, so you'd be a half step low trying to use these together.

You should just play a single note on any Logic instrument; C to C and see if they are different. If they are not, recheck the tuning on the loop -- it may say A# but not actually be tuned to that note or scale.

You can check the calibration of Logic or that loop by using a chromatic tuner - I use a free app on my phone called n-Track Tuner which does a pretty nice job of analyzing and calibration.



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[Tallmaleuk]

Hi Bill and SanderXpander

Thanks for your informative replies.

I am not sure how familar both of you are with Logic Pro X and its loops? But basically in the work area where you create the songs you can set a key signature and for the song in question I have set the Key signature to C Major.

You can then drag a pre-written loop from the Loop section to the main work area to become a part of the song. Each loop has been written in its own key and in this example the loop I have chosen is written in A sharp.

What is supposed to happen (I have been informed by other Logic Pro X users) is that when you drag a loop into the work area even if has been written in another key like A sharp as the loop I am using has been it should automatically conform to the key signature of the song and become a C major loop.

When I checked again this morning I realised that when I play over the Loop in its original position ie in the Loop area with an A sharp scale on my Korg Triton Extreme it is perfectly in tune. Does this indicate that I do not have tuning problems with my Korg Triton Extreme as I thought originally? And does this mean that my Korg Triton Extreme is perfectly in tune?

If I do not have a problem with my Korg Triton Extreme then clearly the problem lies with the Loop itself which is created in A sharp. It is supposed to change to C major to fit in with the song I am writing but this is clearly not happening.

This is my thought anyway. I would welcome both of your opinions on this matter.

Many thanks.

[billbaker]

So the Triton is in tune and the loop is in tune in its original form, but the transposition doesn't go the way it is supposed to.

Is the original loop in A# minor?

You cannot change the tonality of the sample with transposition - minor loop will stay minor even if your designated destination key is Major (*)

A#m = C#M in scalar terms; they both use the same keys. If the original loop needs to play with a C scale it should actually be transposed down a half step to Am which is the relative minor for C; the sample would be playing the naturally minor 6 chord of the C Major scale.

A# (Bb) is the flatted seventh of C (normal); to raise the A# sample a whole step up (C) you would need to transpose the base key to D. The sample would then play a Cm and a played note/scale C/Cm should match.

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(*) the exception to this is if your loop is MIDI as opposed to sound (i.e., .wav sample). In that case "smart" transposition might (depending on software settings) change the MIDI loop's tonality within a given key as follows:

I (root key) - Maj
ii - min
iii - min
IV - Maj
V - Maj
vi - min
flatted 7 - Maj
vii - dim
I (octave) - maj

Raising the minor midi loop within the root key would change it to major.


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[Tallmaleuk]

Hi Bill,

Yes the Triton and the Loop in its original location in the Loops section in Logic Pro X appear to be in tune. What is supposed to happen is that when you drag the Loop into the work area where you are composing the song it is supposed to change to the Key signature of the song concerned which in this example is C Major. The Loop in question is labelled A# so I am assuming its in A sharp Major?

Are you familar with Logic Pro X? I have been told that the loops should automatically change to the songs key signature and so I am wondering what I am doing wrong? I am sure its something simple but as of yet I cannot figure it out.

If I wanted to tranpose the Loop which is in A sharp/B Flat to C Major using the Transpose feature what will I have to do? It just gives you the options of -12, -24, -36 Or +12, +24, +36.

Many thanks again.

[Tallmaleuk]

One more thing the Loop I am dragging into the work area of the song which is A sharp/B Flat is an Audio Loop and Not a Midi Loop. I am not sure if this makes any difference?

Many thanks.

[billbaker]

Not a Logic user as such so no great insights are forthcoming except to say that the values given are for octave transpositions; +12 half steps is +1 octave, +24 = 2octaves up etc., likewise for transpositions down octaves.

Unless you can find a transpose at the +/- single digit level I would suggest leaving it alone.

FWIW: The un-transposed loop should play a C for a C. The designation A# may just be an indication of the original key/note that was sampled. If C (played) gives you A# (heard) then it needs to be transposed up 2 half steps (+2) to be played and heard as the same C.

You may have the option to save that A# sample to A# as a note/map location for the sample -- an A# sample saved/mapped to A# would put everything in its correct key. That recommended location could be the reason to include A# in the name.

It could also be someone's idea of a clever pun -- a poke in the ear with A# stick. Dunno.

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RE: difference between audio and MIDI loop is that tempo changes to MIDI don't effect tuning, while changing the pitch of loops with rhythmic elements (everything from drums to delay to reverb time) almost always changes tempo of those elements as well. This is a problem when faster elements like vibrato are doubled and redoubled -- they start to approach audible Hz; you'll begin to hear weird notes or pulses on anything you use that +32 transposition on.

Some sample players compensate with time-stretch functions that cut and resample short elements into longer ones, restoring tempo glitches caused by repitching samples to fill a scale. This, BTW, is why you want multisample of things like piano where every note is sampled and nothing is distorted by repitching the original samples.

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[Tallmaleuk]

Hi Bill,

I think I may have found a way around this problem. To be honest it has stumped me for a couple of days now and I have searched the entire internet for a solution and I think I may have found it! I havent tested yet though and so I dont want to get too excited but after your post I got to thinking that if the Loop already has a Key and this key is not changing when its imported into my song project then perhaps I can import it as it is with the same key and then use it as a template to create a MIDI file using the key signature of the existing song which of course is C Major. I have just tried it and it says the new file which is an identical loop is C Major but I am now going to test it by playing over this file in C Major with my Korg Triton Extreme.

Wish me luck! I will let you know how it goes.

Many thanks again for all your help it has been invaluable.

[Tallmaleuk]

I got way too excited then! lol But unfortunately even though the new loop says its in C Major it is woefully out of tune with the C major scale on my Korg Triton Extreme. I have also tried playing over it when it is playing in the loop section and its clearly still in A sharp/B Flat despite it saying its in C major!

I guess the search for answers continues!

[SanderXpander]

I would be surprised if loops automatically change to the key of the song. I could play many chords in C Major, both scale native as well as outside, major/minor substitutions, etc.

If I drag, say, a guitar loop into a project in the key of C major, how would Logic know if I actually need an F major chord, or a G major chord (both native to the C major scale)?

Where I'm going is, perhaps you actually need to define something like a "chord track" in addition to setting the key.

[Tallmaleuk]

Hi SanderXpander,

Everywhere right across the internet everyone including Apple are quoted as saying that the Loops automatically adopt the Key of the song you are writing providing you have set the Key signature in this song which I have done as C Major.

There is something called Global Tracks but I do not fully understand it being a newbie but from what I can understand this allows you to change key during parts of the song for example the Pre-chorus and then return to the original key when you get back into the chorus for example. From reading I dont get the impression that this sets the key for the song which is usually done at the beginning when you first create the track.

I have just discovered that when I import/drag a loop from the Loops section which has a key of A sharp to a song with a key signature of C Major and then add a bassline (played by myself) in the A sharp scale that of course it works beautifully and is perfectly in key. So there is a way of recording a song which is in key. Its just that I wanted to find a way to record songs in particular keys like C Major as this would be more convenient for when I have vocalists singing over the songs as they may prefer some keys to others.

[Tallmaleuk]

Bill Baker and SanderXpander,

I just had a thought. Is it possible that even though I am playing software instruments that my Korg Triton Extreme is out of tune? And this is causing the notes I play in the C Major over this loop which should change to C Major when its imported into the project to sound out of tune?

Can Korg Triton Extreme go out of tune? And would this affect the pitch of the notes I play over this Loop?

I have also read about the fact that some users have had problems with the Pitch Wheel/Joy stick on the Korg Triton Extreme not going back to its centred position due to it becoming faulty and this affecting the notes they play on the synthesizer making them out of tune?

Many thanks.

[SanderXpander]

It is possible but very unlikely.
It is much more likely that the loop isn't transposing (correctly). Do you have any other instrument (even a free piano app on your smartphone) that can confirm that the loop is playing in the right key? What happens if you use the piano roll view in Logic to create a softsynth part in C?

[Tallmaleuk]

Hi SanderXpander,

I just checked several piano scales on Youtube against my Korg Triton Extreme and it is pitch perfect. All the scales they played in the keys they played them in I was able to replicate by playing the same notes on my Korg Triton. So I no longer think my Korg is out of tune

So your right its got to be a loop issue in Logic Pro X. The weird thing is that when I select the Play In feature in the Loop Browser this should make the loop play in its original key with some of the loops I am able to play over them in key but others sound woefully out of tune.

This issue has certainly stumped me and continues to do so as I cannot imagine the Logic Pro X loops themselves are out of tune otherwise millions of users would be complaining of having the same problems. And the problem only seems to be affecting a few people out of the millions of users.

Many thanks.