Tuning Down

aron · Post by **aron** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:59 am

LZ,

I know, really weird opinions from some. I just never thought it was a big deal, but for some people it is. I got into it from someone that was posting because he was worried about playing something in a weird key. Then one of the posters pulled out a quote from "Effortless Mastery"! I was done with that thread! Glad to see someone else saw through all of that.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:54 am

Falcon2e wrote:
SanderXpander wrote:A semitone or maybe a whole tone is doable but I get very disoriented if it's more than that. I have an idea on how my voicings should sound and if they sound significantly different it messes up my playing. I don't know which chord inversion I should play anymore for instance.

Besides, learning a song in a new key improves your skill and often your understanding of the song. I'm not too proud to use transpose functions when I'm put on the spot but I definitely prefer actually playing in the new key. I dare anyone to call it a bad performance though :p
You are correct! Learning rather than transposing with a button will improve our skills, BUT..if you are playing a song in band "A", and playing the same song with band "B" in a different key, why give yourself a headache?

Because I like getting better? This is my job so maybe it's different for those who use music purely for blowing off steam. But using transpose is a short term solution. I like to challenge myself so that I improve and find it easier and easier to play anything in any key.

aron · Post by **aron** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:40 pm

I think the problem is that for me, the transpose is mostly used for songs I am sight reading or have never played before. The charts might be way off and at that point transpose really helps. For me I am not talking about songs I play all the time nor songs that I practice at home.

Let me turn it around, let's say you have an app - irealbook and they give you a chart in the wrong key. In irealBook you can change the key, are you telling me you wouldn't press the transpose but would rather transpose it in your head, having never heard the song before? It's certainly a nice challenge but why not transpose it and put it in the correct key so that you and the others read in the same key.

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:07 pm

I was recently asked to join a great Stevie Ray Vaughan tribute band. The Set List transpose was a real life saver. I think it was part of the last Kronos system upgrade. I play in a lot of bands and this new feature on Kronos has made this so much easier. A lot of times I work through a song only to find at the gig the band does it in a different key. No problem, I just fix it in a jiffy in the Set List transpose. Thank you Korg!

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:25 pm

aron wrote:I think the problem is that for me, the transpose is mostly used for songs I am sight reading or have never played before. The charts might be way off and at that point transpose really helps. For me I am not talking about songs I play all the time nor songs that I practice at home.

Let me turn it around, let's say you have an app - irealbook and they give you a chart in the wrong key. In irealBook you can change the key, are you telling me you wouldn't press the transpose but would rather transpose it in your head, having never heard the song before? It's certainly a nice challenge but why not transpose it and put it in the correct key so that you and the others read in the same key.

I would probably transpose the chart on the iPad, true. Because in that case I still have normal control over my voicings.

I'm not dissing the transpose function, it definitely serves a use in a pinch. I even use set list transpose in one case where I use my nanopad to trigger chords and a band I play with plays the song in a different key - it means I don't have to reprogram the sound just to get different chords. I just think when you're using it to basically be "lazy", you're missing out on improving yourself. It solves the short term problem but if you actually studied on playing in different keys, you might get better at it and not be bothered by them later on. Also, transposing on sight or playing a known song in a different key always helps me see the song in harmonic degrees better and helps me understand the song. Usually once I've done it in two or three keys, I can do it in any. It really frees you from thinking in specific chords or notes, it becomes "second, fourth, flat-seventh" instead of "Gm, Bb, Eb".

aron · Post by **aron** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:52 pm

>It really frees you from thinking in specific chords or notes, it becomes "second, fourth, flat-seventh" instead of "Gm, Bb, Eb".

Yes, I was going to start writing charts in degrees but it gets messy when the charts start changing, temporarily going to a different tonal center. Lots of times it's just a II V half step off etc but when you start writing out the chords in numerals, it looks a lot harder than it is.

Is there any place on the web with jazz standards written as roman numerals? I'd like to see how they did a few of them.

Another problem is that several of the bands I play with have specific chord substitutions and specific lines, so at that point, it's better if everyone is reading off the same chart in the same key.

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Well and also remember that many guitarist who tuned flat a half step were actually "playing" in the original key. If they're chart's in E, why not play in E right along with them? Everybody tunes flat one half making it far easier to talk through any changes if necessary.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:27 pm

aron wrote:>It really frees you from thinking in specific chords or notes, it becomes "second, fourth, flat-seventh" instead of "Gm, Bb, Eb".

Yes, I was going to start writing charts in degrees but it gets messy when the charts start changing, temporarily going to a different tonal center. Lots of times it's just a II V half step off etc but when you start writing out the chords in numerals, it looks a lot harder than it is.

Is there any place on the web with jazz standards written as roman numerals? I'd like to see how they did a few of them.

Another problem is that several of the bands I play with have specific chord substitutions and specific lines, so at that point, it's better if everyone is reading off the same chart in the same key.

iGigbook has like 300 standards written in Roman numerals I think. I forgot if that Realbook app (iRealb I think?) also does it but I think so.

FWIW I don't usually read/write charts in numerals but I'm pretty sure you'd get used to the idiosyncrasies pretty quickly if you stuck with it. Good idea actually, I should practice that!

LZ · Post by LZ » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:33 am

I really didn't intend to start this whole stupid debate up again over here. Well I didn't start it over there, I got sucked into it. Unlike there, there first thing you guys did is solve my problem, so now I guess we're just chatting about it.

Anyway....if a band plays in a song in a different key I play it in that key. I play it the way the band does. If they tune down......I "tune down". If they play it in A on their instrument I play it in A on mine. If they're tuned down and A happens to be Ab if you're tuned to 440Hz, then I'll transpose so that I'm playing the same notes they are. Of course I could choose to make it as difficult as possible in order to improve as a player. But if that's your goal, then you should love the transpose button. Because that means that every gig you play, you could randomly shift the pitch and have to deal with it and transpose on the fly and play in every key. Why don't you do that if you care so much about being a better player? Why? because sometimes making things overly difficult is just stupid.

That's all I have to say on the subject. I know all the keys. I can play them. I can transpose on the fly when I have to. I also get paid to play with multiple bands and play some of the same songs with all of them. If the band tunes down, I "tune down". I'm good or else they wouldn't all be hiring me and paying me. I have nothing to prove.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:10 am

Actually I agree there, if they're using guitars tuned a semitone down, it makes sense to do the same, even if it's just so you're talking about the same chords.

Also, I use transpose when I'm put on the spot and am not sure enough about the song or myself. No question there. But given the chance, for the reasons already stated, I prefer taking a moment to run through the song in the new key and play it like that. You make it sound like a crime to want to improve your skills as a musician. Maybe you have already reached that state where you can instantly play everything in any key, but I haven't. If I didn't have any drive to do better every time I wouldn't be a musician. It takes countless hours of obsessive practice. I think if your standard practice is to reach for the transpose button you're missing out. I know a guy who plays everything in Am and C and uses transpose to reach all other keys. It's limiting him as a musician. Not saying that's you or anyone here, but there are clear reasons for me to train myself.

aron · Post by **aron** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:11 am

I know a bunch of guys that can use the capo on the fly - on the guitar. I still can't believe it. And yeah, I heard of guy here that plays only in a couple of keys on keyboards.

Anyway, I guess this conversation has reached its limit. I guess whatever gets you a good end result is all that matters. Good luck with your music!