Post NAMM Blues

vortex · Post by **vortex** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:30 am

I recently ordered a PC I felt very happy with. The company contacted me to say the specification I had ordered was no longer available so they would have to give me the next model up, but would honour the original price.
A week later they called back to say they had sourced some components and would be providing the original spec machine. Result ....I am getting exactly what I ordered and was originally very happy with..... but now I feel disappointed and let down!

Quite a good metaphor for NAMM and the Oasys speculations.

Some very eloquent people here have argued, successfully in my opinion, against Korg's press release policy. I agree it really does not serve an open platform policy like OASYS.

I love my Oasys and always will, but now that love is tainted with the possibility of broken promises. (At least we saw more development than the Roland Varios Rack which was effectively still born).

I think if we don't have some news from Korg soon we might regard the Oasys as a closed chapter. That's fine it was worth my money but I'll never buy into the "and wait 'til you see what we'll release for it over the next XX years" line again.

Ultimate Dj · Post by **Ultimate Dj** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:55 am

you've got to be kidding me!!

We have enough threads started about NAMM and the Oasys. Please, no need to start another debate/thread about it. Go and read the other thread titled "Namm 09 and the Oasys" it answers what ever questions you might have.

Seriously I see no benefit or point in continuing this thread....
sorry for being mean but its just ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

i'm still friendly though! see?

puravida
DJ

Mike Conway · Post by **Mike Conway** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:56 am

I don't like the ultra-secrecy, either. However, comparing to the VariOS lack of support is a low blow. I guess it depends on when you bought your OASYS - 6 months ago, or 3½ years ago. I bought it in 05', so from my perspective, this is the most supported piece of gear I've ever had. To requote Dan, from the other thread:

danatkorg wrote:Hi all,

As has been mentioned, updates are often not timed to match trade shows such as NAMM.

Note also that OASYS was introduced four years ago. Over those four years, we've done the following:

added STR-1
added the MS-20EX and PolysixEX
added the MOD-7
added EXs3
increased polyphony
doubled the maximum physical RAM
added lossless compression of PCM ROM and EXs
updated KARMA
released over a thousand new sounds
added the Gate to the AMS Mixer
added the EXi Audio Input
added Chord Mode
added Max # of Notes
added polyphonic unison
added smoothing for Tone Adjust & edits from the display, for analog, stairstep-free operation with many more parameters
added the ability to change EXs without restarting
and more...

...and, we're still working. As usual, I can't say any more at this time.

- Dan

Damn glad that the crew is still working on it. OASYS development isn't dead, yet.

Post by **Sharp** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:35 am

Damn glad that the crew is still working on it. OASYS development isn't dead, yet

I say this again as an overall observation of what I can see KORG doing wrong here.

We wouldn't be even having this conversation or reading anything on the subject of the OASYS being "discontinued" if KORG would only realise that the company policy of not speaking of future developments DOES NOT WORK for open ended products.

You buy an M3 based on what it can do at that moment in time, you don't when you buy an OASYS and KORG's advertising reinforces this. You are buying an open ended premium priced product with the expectations of being able to purchase new Engines and more over time, yet KORG do not make a single promise to you, nor do they even tell you what they are doing.

This is why company policy does not work for an open ended product. An outsider who would not know KORG and their passion would see all this as KORG expecting you to buy the the OASYS based on an idea with not one single promise in writing.

_________________________________________________________
I'm drawing a line under that because I think KORG can stop this dead right now and create a huge amount of buzz around the OASYS by simply telling people what they are doing, and what the future for the OASYS is.... all of it.

If they don't do that, then we are going nowhere.

As always, I say this with the highest respect for a company I admire. I just think that the OASYS is a first in open ended workstations and KORG are still trying to deal with the marketing as if it where one of their normal products.

Regards.
Sharp.

curvebender · Post by **curvebender** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:49 am

Sharp wrote:
Damn glad that the crew is still working on it. OASYS development isn't dead, yet
I say this again as an overall observation of what I can see KORG doing wrong here.

We wouldn't be even having this conversation or reading anything on the subject of the OASYS being "discontinued" if KORG would only realise that the company policy of not speaking of future developments DOES NOT WORK for open ended products.

You buy an M3 based on what it can do at that moment in time, you don't when you buy an OASYS and KORG's advertising reinforces this. You are buying an open ended premium priced product with the expectations of being able to purchase new Engines and more over time, yet KORG do not make a single promise to you, nor do they even tell you what they are doing.

This is why company policy does not work for an open ended product. An outsider who would not know KORG and their passion would see all this as KORG expecting you to buy the the OASYS based on an idea with not one single promise in writing.

_________________________________________________________
I'm drawing a line under that because I think KORG can stop this dead right now and create a huge amount of buzz around the OASYS by simply telling people what they are doing, and what the future for the OASYS is.... all of it.

If they don't do that, then we are going nowhere.

As always, I say this with the highest respect for a company I admire. I just think that the OASYS is a first in open ended workstations and KORG are still trying to deal with the marketing as if it where one of their normal products.

Regards.
Sharp.

Agree totally with Sharp. Well put.

MauroR · Post by **MauroR** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:29 pm

Mike Conway wrote:I don't like the ultra-secrecy, either. However, comparing to the VariOS lack of support is a low blow. I guess it depends on when you bought your OASYS - 6 months ago, or 3½ years ago. I bought it in 05', so from my perspective, this is the most supported piece of gear I've ever had. To requote Dan, from the other thread:

danatkorg wrote:Hi all,

As has been mentioned, updates are often not timed to match trade shows such as NAMM.

Note also that OASYS was introduced four years ago. Over those four years, we've done the following:

added STR-1
added the MS-20EX and PolysixEX
added the MOD-7
added EXs3
increased polyphony
doubled the maximum physical RAM
added lossless compression of PCM ROM and EXs
updated KARMA
released over a thousand new sounds
added the Gate to the AMS Mixer
added the EXi Audio Input
added Chord Mode
added Max # of Notes
added polyphonic unison
added smoothing for Tone Adjust & edits from the display, for analog, stairstep-free operation with many more parameters
added the ability to change EXs without restarting
and more...

...and, we're still working. As usual, I can't say any more at this time.

- Dan

Damn glad that the crew is still working on it. OASYS development isn't dead, yet.

Yes, a lot of stuff but useless to me. STR-1 is useless for guitars, come on, don't tell me that you can create a relistic guitar sound with that crap, guitars EXs would been better, and I won't go on with the other EXis. The Oasys needs a lot of revamping (ROM) and improvements (Sequencer), the guitar sounds are crap compared to a very less expensive Motif XS or Fantom G, guitars are the base of a song, as bass guitars and drums, sure we can plug a real guitar on it, but not everyone can play guitar and bass together and playing keyboards also, and you can't get a realistic guitar part on the Oasys if you don't play a real guitar, that's the point. Don't mention KARMA because it's useless outside of jamming and improvising, you don't have the control to write part with it, at least to me. Korg leave alone that M3 FFS and work on the Oasys. We payed a lot of money and did a lot of sacrifices to get it, do something.

vEddY · Post by **vEddY** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:02 pm

MauroR wrote: Yes, a lot of stuff but useless to me. STR-1 is useless for guitars, come on, don't tell me that you can create a relistic guitar sound with that crap, guitars EXs would been better, and I won't go on with the other EXis. The Oasys needs a lot of revamping (ROM) and improvements (Sequencer), the guitar sounds are crap compared to a very less expensive Motif XS or Fantom G, guitars are the base of a song, as bass guitars and drums, sure we can plug a real guitar on it, but not everyone can play guitar and bass together and playing keyboards also, and you can't get a realistic guitar part on the Oasys if you don't play a real guitar, that's the point. Don't mention KARMA because it's useless outside of jamming and improvising, you don't have the control to write part with it, at least to me. Korg leave alone that M3 FFS and work on the Oasys. We payed a lot of money and did a lot of sacrifices to get it, do something.

OK, I would assume that this would be where a line needs to be drawn. Nothing about this product is crap, but it could definitely be improved. No need to lash out at people that have been working extremely hard on improving the OASYS over the years. I mean, some decent level of respect would be welcome.

Some of the samples could definitely be improved, although some of them have been improved with certain updates. For example, EXs3 did quite a few wonders for orchestral sounds. Guitars could be better, I agree.

And as far as KARMA being useless outside of jamming and improvising.. KARMA is best when used in certain environment - yes, jamming and improvising. But also, for composing and ideas. And yes, it's also very good for recording, when you get the hang of it. From my point of view, it's VERY, VERY good for recording. But that's something that you won't know by yourself unless you dig into it. And don't even get me started with Karma OASYS.

I would assume that there's a lot of people out there that just don't like to dig deep into stuff anymore, which I can respect - it's just the way it is. But that doesn't mean that you should bash something that you clearly don't understand.

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:03 pm

I'm not an OASYS owner, but it seems to me that buying a keyboard with an open-ended promise of "future improvements" is a bit risky. Even if Korg had said, "We'll give you improvements x, y, and z on dates a, b, and c", there's still no guarantee things will actually happen, let alone them saying "There will be future improvements". If you bought an OASYS because of what you thought it might be in the future but weren't happy with what it was when you bought it, you made a risky purchase and can't blame Korg (who didn't say what improvements they'd make).

For example, Korg may decide that the majority of their customer base may benefit least from an improved sequencer as opposed to other possible upgrades, and they may not upgrade the sequencer at all. If you didn't like the sequencer, should you have bought the OASYS? Maybe, because of other features, but the only thing you're guaranteed of is the state of the machine on the day you buy it.

lcmorley · Post by **lcmorley** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:20 pm

kanthos wrote:I'm not an OASYS owner, but it seems to me that buying a keyboard with an open-ended promise of "future improvements" is a bit risky. Even if Korg had said, "We'll give you improvements x, y, and z on dates a, b, and c", there's still no guarantee things will actually happen, let alone them saying "There will be future improvements". If you bought an OASYS because of what you thought it might be in the future but weren't happy with what it was when you bought it, you made a risky purchase and can't blame Korg (who didn't say what improvements they'd make).

For example, Korg may decide that the majority of their customer base may benefit least from an improved sequencer as opposed to other possible upgrades, and they may not upgrade the sequencer at all. If you didn't like the sequencer, should you have bought the OASYS? Maybe, because of other features, but the only thing you're guaranteed of is the state of the machine on the day you buy it.

As plenty of others have said, the whole premise of the Oasys, was that it was an open arthitecture platform to support Korg innovation for years to come.

We didn't spend half the money and buy an M3 for that very reason. We invested in Korgs innovations. It seems the M3 contains more "innovation" than the Oasys. That is why people feel short changed.

If when I bought the Oasys, I thought that it would not receive any updates in the future (especially as it was the whole reason for the Oasys), I would have just bought the M3.

kanthos wrote:Even if Korg had said, "We'll give you improvements x, y, and z on dates a, b, and c", there's still no guarantee things will actually happen

If as you say above, Korg released the Oasys, and then provided no updates, they could be sued under the Trade Descriptions Act. So that would not have been a good idea.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:50 pm

Sharp - agree with you 100%. The current ongoing issue here is simply one of communication - and to the other (non OASYS owners) - it is not based on lack of deliverables by Korg. Korg have been astoundingly brave in releasing OASYS in the first place and have delivered hugely. So that’s not the issue. But to anyone who remains unconvinced by its gargantuan power - make a cup of coffee, sit comfortably by you computer, go to korg.com and read carefully through the feature set for OASYS. After your jaw has stopped dropping, go over to KarmaLab and watch some of Stephen Kay's videos. you will be left with no doubt that even after four years this instrument still out performs every other workstation considerably. That is a unique achievement.

So aside from the sequencer issue (which we all know can be resolved because it's already in the M33); there are virtually no other complaints about OASYS's capabilities; and virtually all owners are extremely happy with the instrument.

I realise my other thread was pretty damning - but although my gripes were based on worry regarding the future of Karma, and Karma on OASYS in particular - at least Stephen Kay did say he'll support it; and Dan indicated more to come.

But that does not quite reassure us because as Sharp correctly points out - Korg should in this instance indicate their intentions very clearly at this stage.

But I'll also say what I've said before - Open Architecture does not necessarily mean updates for years to come - it is an _approach_ which has largely delivered already. I realise I'm splitting hairs here - but I suspect that aside from a few 'update junkies'; most of us simply want the paradigm to continue - however slowly - because that's what we bought into for a considerable price - and now we're unclear on that. And as Sharp has very well pointed out - we want to know what Korg think on this. Its the bloody uncertainty that's frustrating everyone. I think as customers we are entitled to clarity on what Open Architecture means to Korg at this juncture.

I for one will be OK with whatever Korg say, once its clear. What has annoyed me so much is simply seeing Stephen Kay move to Open Labs with a new revision of Karma - without any qualification of that to OASYS users - and I don't necessarily mean by Stephen Kay alone - I mean by Korg, the OASYS team and by Karma Lab. We have, as a user base, been taken for granted in this. and I believe we are entitled to feel taken for granted - we are the owners of THE most expensive workstation in production. Can you imagine twenty plus years ago Fairlight announcing that their next revision would appear on Synclavier and not the existing Fairlight hardware - there would have been bloody war. Korg, and indeed Stephen Kay need to realise that you do not treat a user base that way – especially one owning an Open Architecture. As Sharp correctly points out – if we were M3 owners we would have nothing to say; but we are owners of the Korg open-ended flagship, and that changes everything. As said I think Stephen is a fantastic character and a genius – and we all wish him huge success with Open Labs – but he still has customers and owners – us – and you need to treat customers in a professional manner when dealing at the level of OASYS. Sun Microsystems, for example, announce their next OS revision months if not years in advance. And if they drop a feature, they contact their user base or flag the issue well in advance.
So Korg and even Karma-Lab are playing a risky game - they cannot afford to treat their most committed user base with anonymity with, as Sharp said - an instrument declared to be an Open Architecture. Karma revisions for Open Labs alone – without any announcement, regard or consideration for OASYS users constitutes extremely bad business acumen IMO, suggests that a lot of thought and decision making has taken place between Korg and Karma-Lab; and these need to be articulated to the OASYS community......

But despite all of that - I say to existing non-Oasys owners - we think the OASYS is stunning and do not feel aggrieved to date - we are just very worried about the future – feel poorly treated in relation to Karman moving to Open Lab at the expense of OASYS - surely for real and justifiable reasons.

Kevin.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:35 pm

Sharp wrote: You buy an M3 based on what it can do at that moment in time, you don't when you buy an OASYS.

Just a note: when I comment on this, I tend to say exactly the opposite: buy based on what it does now. In my opinion, that's the only reasonable approach to any tech product.

Best regards,

Dan

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:39 pm

MauroR wrote:
Yes, a lot of stuff but useless to me. STR-1 is useless for guitars, come on, don't tell me that you can create a relistic guitar sound with that crap,

I'd recommend that you try playing with the Straits Solo Guitar, using the Vector Joystick for feedback, and JS-Y for mutes. I'm not aware of any sample library that can come remotely close to that level of realism.

Best regards,

Dan

Daz · Post by **Daz** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:46 pm

+1

STR-1 is excellent and combined with the very strong amp/cab modelling Korg included you can get fantastic results. I've played it with my MIDI guitar (posted here some time ago) and I was even more pleased with that.

Some where there are fab demos from Korg themselves, that highlight the acoustic sounds too.

To get the most from those sounds you really need to work hard with getting the performance right, otherwise you do end up with guitar sounds that have a very strong keyboard accent. That's been one of my big lessons I've learned.

D.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:04 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote: What has annoyed me so much is simply seeing Stephen Kay move to Open Labs with a new revision of Karma - without any qualification of that to OASYS users - and I don't necessarily mean by Stephen Kay alone - I mean by Korg, the OASYS team and by Karma Lab.

and:

Kevin Nolan wrote:Karma revisions for Open Labs alone – without any announcement, regard or consideration for OASYS users constitutes extremely bad business acumen IMO, suggests that a lot of thought and decision making has taken place between Korg and Karma-Lab; and these need to be articulated to the OASYS community......

KARMA-Lab provides their technology to Korg on a non-exclusive basis. I personally wish Stephen all the best with his efforts to implement the technology as widely as possible, and I believe that he is under no obligation to disclose such plans with Korg. I found out about the Open Labs announcement the week of the show.

- Dan

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:38 pm

danatkorg wrote:Just a note: when I comment on this, I tend to say exactly the opposite: buy based on what it does now. In my opinion, that's the only reasonable approach to any tech product.

This is exactly what I was getting at. No updates at all from the original OASYS release would definitely be false advertising, but at this point, the promise of future updates has been satisfied, at least legally. Not to your liking as an OASYS owner, sure, but that was a risk you took when you bought the product.

I *do* hope that Korg does keep the OASYS going for many years to come. It's a great concept with good results so far.