Dedicated guitar module?

[JPROBERTLA]

After spending 3 hours last night (just on guitar parts) working on a sequence with 1 simple muted guitar rhythm track and 2 guitar parts that are very brief and secondary in nature, I have come to the conclusion that there really needs to be a better solution for guitars for keyboard sequencers.

I don't believe one exists, but wouldn't it be great to have a dedicated guitar module. Maybe 4 part, 64 note polyphony with a built in real tube pre-amp, guitar effects, good compression, amp and cabinet models, with a synth engine designed to model a guitar and/or use good guitar samples. Seems like something that could be done fairly easily with current technology, could be moderately priced and a have a substantial amount of potential customers.

The Kronos, so far, is not that. And I can't see having to carry around a PC and plug- ins just for this.

[popmann]

I know how hard it is to find guitar players...

[Shakil]

Have you tried STR1 and KARMA and the 12 Effects processors?

Try to use Guitar midi interface....

You will never get the real thing though... but pretty close.

[music_avijeet]

Personally I prefer Guitar tones from Motif. Korg HAS to work on improving guitar tones, high time. IMO.

[jamsire]

We've had this discussion before - GET A GUITAR PLAYER!

I can't play keyboards AT ALL. So, when it's time for that skill set - I get my very accomplished friends to come play the parts for me. Food and cash work well in my experience.

And yeah - get a midi guitar interface! I did!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qakHJ8rNhNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwKyVFP3Ek

I'm just sayin'............

[MidnightPackage]

I really don't think it is helpful to tell somebody wanting better guitar sounds to find a real guitar player. You could say the same thing about strings, brass and woodwind, or even sitar and didgeridoo. The goal of a workstation is to do a reasonable job of reproducing all of these sounds, and the Kronos falls a little short with guitars when compared with other boards. That isn't to say that the Kronos is anything short of amazing, and I love mine. But it could be better in some areas, and it's good for Korg to hear that.

[jimknopf]

After spending 3 hours last night (just on guitar parts) working on a sequence with 1 simple muted guitar rhythm track and 2 guitar parts that are very brief and secondary in nature, I have come to the conclusion that there really needs to be a better solution for guitars for keyboard sequencers.

I don't believe one exists, but wouldn't it be great to have a dedicated guitar module. Maybe 4 part, 64 note polyphony with a built in real tube pre-amp, guitar effects, good compression, amp and cabinet models, with a synth engine designed to model a guitar and/or use good guitar samples. Seems like something that could be done fairly easily with current technology, could be moderately priced and a have a substantial amount of potential customers.

The Kronos, so far, is not that. And I can't see having to carry around a PC and plug- ins just for this.

+1

Nobody is trying to replace guitar players.
Guitars with a certain rest of credibility are needed for song writing and providing arrangements for band members.

Guitars and Eguitars are the weakest spot on the Kronos, and STR-1 so far is ZERO help to get these kinds of sounds: STR-1 generally sounds stone cold and digital (which is not bad for some other sounds, but bad for guitar sounds).

And one more thing: this kind of discussion will reappear again and again until the problem is solved with better guitar samples and guitar patches. If the weak HD-1 guitar sounds aren't replaced, only sampling or an additional library can cure the problem.

Trying to talk the issue away will not work.

[jamsire]

Trust me - I don't believe anyone wants to replace a guitar player (beat them up at times - yeah).

When I saw the Kronos demo of the guy doing the solo from Beat it - I LOVED that!

I always tell my Sound Design students that the patches synths come with are just starting points - the rest is up to you the owner of the product to make incredible sounds that no one has heard yet, or can't believe it's coming from the unit.

String tension, neck wood, body wood, pickup selection, electronics, cables to amp, what amp, type of amp, electric, acoustic, nylon, steel string, solid body, semi-hollow body, hollow body, etc. The list goes on and those are some of the parameters that are in the Roland VG-8 for GK equipped guitars to make them sound like any guitar.

I still am of the belief that the guitar sound people are looking for in the Kronos exists - but how much time they willing to devote to programming it - is another thing entirely. Are there enough controllers and parameters available to make all the nuances that a guitarist makes?? Doubt it.

As a full blown geetar man myself, I say - maybe, maybe not. But I don't use the Kronos guitar sounds for anything.

[JPROBERTLA]

The purpose of this post was not to replace a guitar player, or rehash all that has already been said. Reality - I worked for 3 hours with a couple of programs that were "starting points" and in the end was not even close to where I felt I needed to be. I admit that I am no a master programmer, but I have spent a long time doing this and have been relatively successful. I am a keyboard player that wants (at minimum) non-keyboard instrument sounds that are used in secondary parts of sequences to sound at least moderately acceptable.

I am a long time Korg user and supporter and am very happy with what the Kronos is; but the workstation guitar issue needs to be solved, thats why I "thought out loud" in saying, wouldn't a dedicated guitar module be a great thing to have. If the Kronos (Korg) can't do it, as is the case with Yamaha, Roland and Kurzweil (as I have listened to all those as well), then perhaps a new approach needs to be considered - a 1st class dedicated guitar module. I am sure that is is possible and has a niche; it certainly has no competition.

[RonF]

Not one single guitar (actual 6 string or bass guitar) was used in this song. Its 100% Kronos patches, tweaked to fit the mix, triggered by a guitar-to-midi convertor. I have to disagree that Kronos is not capable of decent/realistic guitar and bass guitar sounds. JMHO, of course.

http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/04-track-04

[jamsire]

Not one single guitar (actual 6 string or bass guitar) was used in this song. Its 100% Kronos patches, tweaked to fit the mix, triggered by a guitar-to-midi convertor. I have to disagree that Kronos is not capable of decent/realistic guitar and bass guitar sounds. JMHO, of course.

http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/04-track-04

The ABSOLUTE BEST THING about that is the human guitar player phrasing - something an excellent patch can't emulate - nice job my friend - loved everything.

[EvilDragon]

Sorry Ron, guitars don't sound particularly realistic in that piece.

Loved the synth sounds, though.

[jimknopf]

Same for my ears, Ron.

Interesting synth sounds, but no particularly realistic guitar sounds.
I had a better lead guitar sound on my Fantom G.

My experience is exactly that of Jprobertla: on the Fantom G, I was successful using two or three patches as starting points, as many of us usually do, and on the Kronos this also works in other sound categories. But I don't get it right for guitars, because the basic sample material available is really subpar in this area IMHO.
The best effort I saw so far is the video of this Italian guy (Marco Parisi: he hasn't answered the patch questions so far), but the guessed related patches are still not more than "just useable in a mix", and have some unpleasant side effects if you check them separately on your own Kronos.

It's the only area where the Kronos has a real "soundquality hole" from my view.

Here's an example passage from a band sketch I did back with my Fantom G
keyguitartest
That's still no guitar replacement, but I would be happy to get a similar "singing" EGuitar sound on the Kronos for working on song ideas and band arrangements.

[aron]

It's usually the amp simulator and overdrive that really kill the guitar tone in most workstations. They can get heavy overdriven stuff, but not the singing tone that you want. It might be possible with a lot of EQ and other stuff. Hard to tell. I don't think this would be accomplished with only new samples.

[RonF]

Well....if what you seek is a dead ringer emulation of real acoustic guitar instruments, then thats perhaps a different thing. Clearly there are more realistic sample libraries for acoustic guitars than what appears on Kronos. But I don't personally think ANY of them sound very realistic in solo. And I cannot buy into any comments that indicate that electric guitars are mis-represented, or don't sound "authentic". I can dial in 500 different effects chains on my real electric guitars to obtain hundreds of various tones, many of which don't sound anything like a "guitar". An electric guitar is not so different than a synthesizer.....you can program it to be what you want it to be. In fairness....perhaps you may refer to an un-effected natural tone of a Strat through a nice tube amp.....but that is not so different than an acoustic guitar, really. But.....in most cases, for my use anyways, electric guitar means tailoring a custom sound....much in the same way we program a synth patch. So all bets are off. There is no "authentic" in my book.

Anyways (I digressed!), the point of the song I posted was not to impress anyone with how "authentic" the natural guitar tones in that piece sound....but rather how perfectly usable and work-able they can be in a mix. Indeed the phrasing of the midi/guitar conversion helps a lot to add realism....but in any event....the "guitars" in this piece played by midi-guitar are really no different than my real guitars. Its just a "stringed source" run through various effects chains.

You, of course, have the right to your opinions...but for me, side by side, I cannot tell the difference between the distorted rhythm "guitar" in the chorus of this song, and the other tracks I printed (but chose not to use in the final mix) of the same lick recorded from my Fender Strat. The only difference is, the midi version sounded "cleaner". Both tracks go through the same effects chain. The exact same goes for the clean electric chorused "guitars" in the verses. Conversely, the "lead guitar" in that song was not remotely intended to emulate a real lead guitar tone....but rather a synth/guitar hybird...its just a cool tone. And I prefer it in this song....again, just showing what Kronos CAN do.

Of course, all of this is subjective. And different applications may require different results. For my compositions.....I often prefer to use midi over the real thing, when its practical to do so (rhythms, arpeggios, etc), because midi can output a much cleaner signal in the mix, rather than a "recorded" live source, simply by virtue of the noise the recording process can add. Digital vs. analog. My comments here have nothing to do with "presets" on Kronos. I am not particularly fond of using the presets on Kronos, guitars or otherwise. But to me...whether I run 6 live strings from my guitar, or 6 virtual strings from my synth, through various effects such as chorus, flanger, distortion, echo, etc.....results in basically the same output. The difference is more in the playing technique and control. And again....its not intended to be an acoustic solo performance. In the mix I posted....I think the digital emulations sounded better than the recorded versions of the real thing. So I went with it, and stand behind it!

All in all, these are some random thoughts, I know....and to each their own....but I am pretty satisfied with the "guitars" I can get from the Kronos.