Set up KP3 with Shure Beta 58A - Sound Quality Issues

[NoiA]

I mainly use my KP3 as vocal FX processor as an mc hosting Ragga Jungle / Drum & Bass and Breakcore nights.

I have some questions about the set up cause I just don't seem to get it right and now after half a year and having some recordings of really good sets that I can't put online cause the audio quality is pretty bad I thought let's write a treat about it. If this doesn't fix it I get my old TC Helicon Voicetone Create XT back and just use the KP for lickshots samples on the SC Card.

So here's my set up:

Shure Beta 58A & PGX 24 Wireless box
Female XLR to 1/4 Inch Jack cable connected to the mic input of the KP3
- Trim button never more then the 12 o'clock position (usually even less than this.)

Tried two options for output to the DJ Mixer or the PA mixer, both are not ideal

RCA jack from the back line output to Male XLR Cable.
- Line input volume button always on a position so the peak indicator light just stays green and doesn't hit orange or red.

1/4 Inch Jack from the front's Phones output to Male XLR Male
- Trim button never more then the 12 o'clock position (usually even less than this.)

Problems I run in to:

- Mostly some fuzzy vox signal like there is some kind of light distortion / radio filter or megaphone effect triggered? (Recorded lick shots from the SD card sound good and don't have this.)

I'm really fed up with getting back recordings from my set that I can't work with cause the KP is f*ck*ng up...

Should I buy a seperate pre-amp for it, would that help?

For an idea, here's a mix with some of my vocals on it using the KP3 wich was just barely useable with the distortion I mentioned above.

http://soundcloud.com/deep-cutz/live-de ... aalhalla-1

And here's a mix recorded with my old TC Helicon Voicetone Create XT

http://soundcloud.com/deep-cutz/live-de ... -waalhalla

(In both mixes first guy you hear mc-ing is me so you know where to listen for.)

Please help me how to get this under control, i'm really fed up with it and I suspect the components/connections in the kp3 are just of to low quality which is a shame really.

PS:
Other than that some of the effects are completely useless since I mc for sound systems with huge amount of (sub) bass and high output levels. Some effects are instant feedback peak generators unfortunately so can't use them.

So i'm still in search of a clean delay preset, any help with which FX number is good for that and where to lock/hold the pad would also be greatly appreciated.

[Marxon]

Hi NoiA,

Tried two options for output to the DJ Mixer or the PA mixer, both are not ideal

RCA jack from the back line output to Male XLR Cable.
- Line input volume button always on a position so the peak indicator light just stays green and doesn't hit orange or red.

1/4 Inch Jack from the front's Phones output to Male XLR Male
- Trim button never more then the 12 o'clock position (usually even less than this.)

I'm really fed up with getting back recordings from my set that I can't work with cause the KP is f*ck*ng up...

Hard words...
But it seems you just have not enough knowledg how to use your technic.
First you have to know what kind of input you use on your target mixer,
then you can choose the correct way to connect them.

Feeding a symmetric mic input with headphone output signal can not sound well.
Also a asymmetric signal from the RCA output will sound bad on a symmetric input if you use the wrong cable/adapter...

And the feedback thing:
Concerned that it may come from the

sound systems with huge amount of (sub) bass and high output levels

which feedbacks into your mic?

[xmlguy]

The KP3 is not a dedicated vocal FX device. It isn't intended to replace the typical vocal FX chain needed for venues with seriously powerful subs. It does do many very cool FX that can be used very well with the house PA systems in small clubs with average to small power levels. When you have major output power, you have to be a lot more knowledgeable and careful to not send audio that can blow out systems or damage hearing. With power comes responsibility.

The KP3 has no limits or protection built-in for your setting. It also doesn't have a vocal FX chain. It is NOT a replacement for a VoiceTone Create or more powerful vocal FX processors like the VoiceLive2 or VoiceWorksPlus rack. The VoiceTone products are entry-level gear. You probably should be using a higher class of gear for your vocals with features you don't know you need, but are essential for the powerful output you have. One indication that you're a bit out of your league is that you can do some very bad things with the KP3, which is why you probably learned the hard way when those effects caused massive feedback or overload of the output system. The KP3 is very cool and you can certainly use one in your situation if you learn how to control the mix through the whole signal path. You don't know how to do that if you're using the KP3 headphone outputs for ANYTHING other than HEADPHONES. Sorry, but using the headphone outs instead of the proper line outs is 100% a newbie mistake. That should only be done in an emergency situation where you've blown out the line outputs of the KP3 and that's the only option you have left to keep the music going until it gets repaired.

Your choice of mic is good. Your choice of xmitter and receiver is poor. You cheaped out by getting the PGX4 instead of the much better PGXD4. (i know that money can be tough, but the analog PGX4 is a big step down from the PGXD4.)

Here's what I propose for your situation.

Shure Beta58A (since you already have it), PGXD4 wireless. If you can't afford it, make do with the PGX4 or sell it to go wired with a mic cable. This will give you high dynamic range, freq response, better vocal signal.

VoiceWorksPLUS rack or a VoiceLive2 extreme. Either of these will give you a high quality preamp with full vocal FX chain.

A mixer with stereo FX loops and lots of stereo line input channels.

Feedback eliminator with limiting and parametric EQs, and Realtime Analyzer (RTA). You need this as a safety measure, to scope out the frequency and time domain problems in the venue, and to see exactly what your frequency spectrum is doing.

The KP3 should be patched into a mixer FX loop so that you can choose exactly what audio is to be mangled. It should be in the FX chain before the feedback eliminator and limiters. That will give you a lot more freedom to mangle the audio safely.

On a side note, the music could use a lot more engineering to reduce the undesired distortion, clipping and muddiness. The various instrument parts need to be analyzed to keep them better separated in the frequency and time domain. Also, having a bass signal at max amplitude doesn't actually result in the most powerful bass impact and perception. You can send a bass signal that no output system can reproduce cleanly. There are physical limitations to any system. The RTA can help to see exactly where the subs perform best (most efficiently without distortion) and where the room has resonance or dead zones. You can tune the tracks to make better use of the output system by doing the RTA. This will also help to set up sidechain compression ducking to give more dynamic impact, since you can identify the exact frequencies and threshholds for the compressors.

[NoiA]

Double post, see msg below...

[NoiA]

Hi guys, thanks so much for your elaborate answers I appreciate your help very much...

I've had that shure wireless mic and receiver set up for quite some time now and its time to step things up a notch. So I just ordered myself a brand new PGXD24/BETA58-X8 Digital Wireless System with Beta 58A Handheld Transmitter. So i'm set up all digital now mic wise... This makes the starting point of my signal chain all clean now. So thats a good starting point.

I kinda figured using the KP3's headphone output did not make much sense to use and it was a headache haha indeed. (I only used it one gig set up like this and after that I switched to the line out put.) But I thought I'd mention it as an option.

I very much prefer to use the line out signal of the KP3 and this is also my default set up. I use this cable to connect from the KP3's RCA line out to the mixer by the way:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_cfu_15_mc.htm

I kinda figured sending a line out signal to a mic XLR input is a not ideal and can cause trouble and distortion although i'm not a really technical person.

Since I mc over more ragga oriented dubby stuff I love to have the possibility of triggering lickshots with the KP3 from the SD Card. This is something I will loose opting for a higher class TC helicon product of course. But since I didn't have this before I bought the KP3 it's no biggie for me...

I like to use multiple effects on stage and like to have access and total control of it my self. So a rack mounted FX processor would a bit clumsy for accessing the dails and for taking on the road with me.
So only option I see is the voice live 2 (extreme). Thing is I really don't need all the options and FX this box has to offer. Nor even the non extreme edition of it. Since I won't place it on the the ground to operate it with my foot loaded with presets as in a way you would do with a more classic stomp box type of unit. The kind of gigs I play with loads of (spaced out) ravers going wild nothing is safe if it's close to the ground (beer spills etc.) and has to be put well out of reach. So I would prefer to put it on stage so i can control it with my free hand wile preforming.

Does the Kaoss Pad Quad offer better quality components / signal chain and FX for use as a vocal FX processor than the KP3 by the way? Might be worth switching to that unit? Or does that not really matter? Im happy I finally found some people who understand my problem and can give me a honest piece of advice about vocal FX processors.

Other options I have in consideration, cause I don't think the price of a voice live (extreme) is worth it for what I actually use of the capabilities of that unit.

What about these other options? How about the Boss stuff, is that any good?
- Boss VE-20 Vocal Effects Processor (actually a guitar pedal)
- Boss RE-20 Roland Space Echo
- ...

As for the feedback issue, its just a matter of staying out of the direct line of the tops of the sound system and not cupping the mic plus keeping an eye on the gain of course. (Usually the sound system is something along the horn loaded stacks from old w-bins and self build dub reggae rigs to more high end en modern void and funktion one stacks.) But in general it's loud, like in a rave like warehouse setting...

I have no experience with feedback eliminators but I think keeping an eye on the mic gain and not being stupid by pointing the mic towards the speakers/monitors or standing at the 'wrong' spot will make more sense really.

Then another question about the set up. Would it be better to get another RCA to XLR cable and go from the mic's XLR output to the KP3's RCA input. Or should I stick with going from the mic's XLR output to the 1/4 Inch Jack mic input on the front of the KP3?

[xmlguy]

Hi NoiA,

You're welcome. It might be helpful to know that I've worked professionally as an audio engineer for a long time, and my work in live sound requires me to know how to handle the audio side of every instrument, particularly vocals.

A typical FX chain for a vocal mic contains a lot more than special effects. It will have EQ, de-essing, limiting, compression, noise gate, and possibly feedback control. It also usually needs a good sound engineer who knows how to properly set up that chain and adjust it for each vocalist. Unfortunately, a lot of sound "guys" don't have the knowledge, experience, training, or time to do that correctly for each vocalist. Then you'll have the problem of a mic that gets shared by more than one vocalist. Voices can be substantially different and require very different EQ profiles to make them each sound good while remaining clean. Some of the TC Helicon products have automatic vocal profiling and dynamics, with adaptive EQing and effects chain. This can sweeten up your vocals by pressing a button instead of the risk of the draw on finding a good sound engineer. Your voice is your instrument. It's to your advantage to take over control of the handling of your vocals on stage, before the sound guys get their hands on it.

If you don't need or want the advanced vocal FX of the VoiceLive2, then you can stick with either the new VoiceLive Play, the VoiceTone Correct XT or the VoiceTone Single T1. I think the VoiceLive Play is the best value, since it's about the same price as the Correct XT. The Correct XL has feedback protection. Both work well on a table top. The T1 is more of a stompbox with little control. I think it's important to point out that a lot of rap vocalists like doubling to thicken up their sound, so you may be missing out on a common rap effect if you don't have it. The VoiceLive Play has doubling and some other good special FX like megaphone, radio squelch, telephone, in addition to the regular vocal FX chain.

So for you, I would suggest something like: Mic wireless receiver -> VoiceLive Play -> MiniMixer with effects loop -> DI box -> house PA. The KP3 would be inserted into the FX loop of the MiniMixer. The MiniMixer is needed for the XLR of the VoiceLive Play and to control/mix the KP3 effects for sending to the house PA. The mini mixer can give you faders and level meters to see exactly what you're sending to the house PA. This is all very affordable and is certainly a lot less gear than required for most musicians. It will all fit into a small padded flight case that can meet airline carryon requirements and should fit under a seat, if you size it right.

By the way, you're using the wrong kind of cable to go to the mixer, and that can cause lots of bad things to happen. You should be using an RCA to 1/4" cable if going to a PA unbalanced line input (mixer on stage or nearby), or a direct inject (DI) box if going to an XLR on a snake or mixer (farther away). You have a very good chance of blowing up your KP3 if you ever hook it up with that cable to a mixer with phantom power to your channel. If you want to use the full stereo FX capability of the KP3, then you need a 2 channel DI box, otherwise a single DI box is fine. The DI box gives you protection from phantom power, a ground lift switch to prevent ground-loop distortion, and line level unbalanced conversion balanced mic or line levels, with a pad switch if the house mixer doesn't have a mic/line switch on the input channel.

Did somebody tell you to buy that cable adapter? Or did you pick it on your own? If somebody told you to do it, stop listening to them. I guess you realize what that means if you picked it, huh? Another newbie error. You should research DI boxes to get more details about why and when they're necessary, as well as the difference between unbalanced and balanced signals. You need to know what ground loops are, how they're caused, and how a ground lift is used to stop them. As a side benefit, most soundmen/people will be very happy if you present them with a DI box and say - hook this up to a line-level input channel, that's all I need, and keep me flat EQ and dry on the mixer because I have my own vocal FX chain.

[NoiA]

Well the kind of gigs I do is very much the punk kind of DIY/Undergound attitude so there will be no sound engineer setting up or eq-ing my mic in more than let's say 90% of the cases.
Boils down I have to do it my self... That's pretty normal in "my" scene, most mc's who do similar stuff just plug in an old busted up wired SM58 directly into the DJ mixer (Usually a Pioneer DJM 600/700/800 series) and maybe EQ a bit on there, get the gain right and go.

For me it's handy to have my own mic so I know I get to work with a decent piece of equipment so that's why I bought the older set up I posted earlier on. Had that mic for about 7 years, can't go back to a wired model any more. I love the freedom wireless provides...

So for added effects I had a TC Helicon Voicetone Create and later the updated XT version in the past. I know what you mean it has that 'tone' button for compression, de-essing etc on your voice. But I rather preferred that button to be switched off to be honest. It might be a great idea for more "conventional" singing styles. But with the mc/host kind of stuff it seemed to cut the sharp edges a bit to much to my liking. "Biting" the mic and some hissing/essing here and there are no problem for me really... I work with my vocal technique and actually use these kind artefacts as part of my "thing"... On a side note it's also not a sensitive ballad or some opera i'm singing. Usually the stuff that get's played is loud and bass heavy electronic noise.

In the end I was a bit bored with the limited effects on these Helicon units as they seemed geared more towards singing voices than rap/hosting/dub kind of stuff and both sold them and got the KP3. I love the KP3, it let's you totally crush and pull FX into absurd extremes. But this freedom comes with a price indeed I found out the hard way. Although like you already pointed out it doesn't really do very well as a stand alone vocal FX processor I still would like to use it while gigging as part of my set up.

Back to good old TC Helicon then I recon, quite like the quality of their products. Still deciding if I want to go back to the Create XT (eventually together with a Voicetone Correct XT) or go for the Voicelife Play...

I really like the idea of being mobile and fitting in all the gear in a small padded flight case that I can take anywhere.
I think Swan sell these briefcase sized pick and pluck ones where you can shape the inner foam to your own needs.

Heheh picked it on my own to be honest. I just figured, RCA output plus XLR input on a mixer... and done haha. That I don't need phantom power on the mixer is something I knew and never used if the mixer had that option. But that there is a rather big chance frying the KP3 if that's accidentally switched on is something I did not know, thanks!

Got some homework to do for sure. Getting this new set up deserves it to dive more in to these matters for sure. Thanks again for the very useful tips. Might be basic stuff for you. I have lots to learn still... Makes it fun and another challenge for me, ultimately building my own vocal FX chain.

I'll keep you updated on this, will take some time before I properly researched everything and get all the gear. After that I hope to at least have a solid platform for the next 5+ years.