SysEx messages?

[Rob Sherratt]

What I would like to achieve is this: I set up the Pa2x to produce the best mix of sounds for a particular piece of music - I then save the settings into a Performance.

Having the M3 and Pa2x communicating with each other via a PC using Midi, when I select Piano on the Pa2x the M3 also changes to Piano, but in GM2 mode. and The M3 can be made to 'tic' to the Pa2x's Clock.

This is the problem/argument: After experimenting with a different mix, by pressing buttons on the M3, I decide that the instrument I want to mix with my current Pa2x Performance setting is, for example, Strings.

So I have introduce computer software that will intercept midi messages from the Pa2x and allow the message to be modified from Piano to Strings before sending them to the M3 - all at the speed of light (in theory).

Now I have to be careful regarding the changes because, if I make the M3 select Strings whenever I select Piano on the Pa2x, this means that it will always do this and this is not good because in the next mix I may want the M3 to select Guitar when I select Piano on the Pa2x.

So, instead of modifying the ‘instrument select’ bit of midi, I need a System Exclusive midi message, a message that is different for each Performance on the Pa2x.

This means that I now have the freedom to make the M3 select any setup of my choice, exclusively for each Performance. It means I can enhance the Pa2x Styles but I won’t go there.

The frustration is the fact that the Pa2x does not seem to transmit SysEx, so none of this is possible but, the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that I use this setup on other keyboards I play.

Hi David,

I don't think you understood what I suggested in my first reply to you?

My friend, you are making this much more complicated than it needs to be. Just filter out the program change messages on the Pa2x - it's in Global - Midi, so that when you change sounds on the Pa2x nothing changes on the M3.

Then like I said, set up your own Combis on the M3 to assign sounds (programs) to MIDI channels in the way you want it. Then by changing Combi or by muting/unmuting tracks within the Combi you can change the sounds on the M3. You could also change the Combi or mute/ unmute tracks using a MIDI programmable footswitch like the FCB1010 using standard MIDI messages (Sysex not needed).

This stuff you are doing mapping MIDI program change messages in a PC or whatever is complete overkill and defeats the object of what you need to achieve.

Best regards,
Rob

[looo]

Hello, David!

Actually PA2X/800 sends some sort of sysex data out, "quarter tone" setup is a vivid example. But you have to remove sysex out filters on your PA first to have the effect.
It you're interested in further PA sysex-connected discussions take a look at the following links:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... p?p=222826
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... p?p=244102

[Martinkorg]

Interesting thread! I always wanted to know what this SysEx was. Why they don't publish a listing of the SysEx messages like they have for other midi messages, and make it easy for every body? Every body knows what controller #7 is and so forth. Why that's not the case with SysEx messages?

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Martinkorg,

It's not a big secret nor is there anything magical you can achieve using the Sysex codes.

The Pa2x and Pa800 both conform to the GM2 standard which requires some "extended" capabilities such as transpose and FX parameters to be provided using standardised GM2 SysEx messages.

You can find out more by reading the two threads that looo mentioned. As far as we can tell, nearly all of the GM2 "extended" capabilities are supported on the Pa1x/ Pa800/ Pa2x but there is some doubt whether the EFX SysEx parameters to change the delay and chorus send levels are working. Everything else works fine.

The GM2 standard and the SysEx parameter codes are documented here (see the GM2 section and the links to the specification documents from that page)

http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gm.php

My advice is not to bother with the GM2 Sysex messages, just stick with the RPN, NRPN, Midi Controller (CC) and Program Change messages. There is a huge amount you can do with those and they are all well documented in the tables in the back of the user manual and in the advanced edit guide (where it tells you which EFX parameters are controllable from MIDI messages / Dynamic Modulation sources).

Nice modulation effects are mostly done with MIDI CC#01 and CC#02 messages that emulate Joystick +Y and Joystick -Y (ie Joystick up and down). So if a sound has a cool effect when you move the joystick up and down, you can control exactly the same thing using MIDI CC#01 and CC#02 which is easy to program in any PC based sequencer.

For examples of what can be achieved using standard MIDI GM2 messages, watch some of the videos at Karma Labs and the "Karma" implementation on the M3.

Best regards,
Rob

[Sam CA]

You won't find a list similar to other midi parameters for SysEx. it's not possible, because most SysEx messages are very specific for each brand and even model. That's why you would see different SysEx messages in different manuals. there's no standard extensive list of SysEx messages.

[Martinkorg]

You won't fild a list similar to other midi parameters for SysEx. it's not possible, because most SysEx messages are very specific for each brand and even model. That's why you would see different SysEx messages in different manuals. there's no standard extensive list of SysEx messages.

Few years ago,i took a recording class in school and i remember the professor said they use SysEx messages often in music labs. I should've shown more interest.

[Sam CA]

You won't fild a list similar to other midi parameters for SysEx. it's not possible, because most SysEx messages are very specific for each brand and even model. That's why you would see different SysEx messages in different manuals. there's no standard extensive list of SysEx messages.

Few years ago,i took a recording class in school and i remember the professor said they use SysEx messages often in music labs. I should've shown more interest.

I know! Especially the ones that have old analog equipments. Unfortunately they get out of tune like a piano!!! So one fast way to fix the tunning is "SysEx". They do that on the stage too, if that kind of gear is used.

Also they use SysEx to "Archive" the midi settings of different devices. It's a fast way to restore any given configuration. Otherwise you would have to do it manually each time.

[Autumn]

Thank you Rob & Looo,

I actually do understand what you are telling me and suggesting. It’s a two machine standard midi setup, which I have been using for the Pa2x and M3 midi configured since getting M3 earlier this year. The only addition is that I have a PC through which the midi passes from the Pa2x to the M3.

This setup works fine - I select the desired Performance on the Pa2x and then manually select the desired M3 Combi I have previously arranged to compliment that of the Pa2x and with that, the settings on both instruments, right down to the very last instrument in the Style, are exactly how I previously arranged for a particular piece of music.

This is fine until your ever increasing number of Performances-Combi arrangements exceed your ability to remember what Combis go with what Performances, and then you realise that you are spending more time looking for bits of paper than playing.

You are a few years late advising me not get involved with SysEx and, although you tell me it is not magic - I consider it is indispensable for getting the best out of multi keyboard/Module setups.

However, if you can tell me, for example, how to select Int-A 000: Stereo Grand4-way 1EX3 on the M3 by way of selecting Strings on the Pa2x without SysEx Or, how to select Combi Int-C 024 Vintage Organ by way of selecting Performance Ambience E,Guitar on the Pa2x. Or any settings on the M3 that are not a duplicate of the Pa2x, then I will thank you most greatly and go away.

Regards
David

[Rob Sherratt]

if you can tell me, for example, how to select Int-A 000: Stereo Grand4-way 1EX3 on the M3 by way of selecting Strings on the Pa2x without SysEx Or, how to select Combi Int-C 024 Vintage Organ by way of selecting Performance Ambience E,Guitar on the Pa2x. Or any settings on the M3 that are not a duplicate of the Pa2x, then I will thank you most greatly and go away.

Hi David,

Please don't go away! You're the only person I know trying to do the same things as me with both a Pa2x and an M3.

All I am saying is that the most straightforward thing to do to avoid translation of patch change messages and the consequential latency of routing MIDi via a PC, is to decouple the patch change messages between two keyboards (by filtering out program change messages using the MIDI filter on the Pa2x). I do this so that I can select a sound or style on the Pa2x AND (separately by pressing a button or footswitch on the M3) select a Performance or Combi on the M3. In this mode, the MIDI link between my two keyboards is used only to send note on/off and expression pedal info between the two keyboards when I want to play them in tandem. Most of the time I just use them as two separate keyboards not even linked apart from at my mixer desk.

I also created (modified) a couple of styles on the Pa2x so they do not use any sounds on the Pa2x but instead they use the M3 as the tone generator. In this case I cancelled the program change filter on the Pa2x and I sent the bank and patch change messages from the Pa2x into the M3 to select the programs for each track that I wanted. You can do it all from style play mode and then write style performance. You set every track in the style to "external", and then you can edit the control change/ program change message that is sent for each track so that it selects the programs you want on the M3. If you want to try this, see pages 100 and 101 of the Pa2x manual, the section headed "Track Controls: Mode".

Incidentally I couldn't find a MIDI map for the M3 Expanded so I temporarily connected the M3 MIDI Out to my PC and I used the MidiOx analyzer to watch the patch change messages while I manually stepped through the sounds and drum kits I wanted to use.

Have you found any documentation for the MIDI Bank/PC mapping for sounds on M3 Expanded?

Best regards,
Rob

[jg::]

David, it would actually be a little easier to do what you want to do with the instruments the other way around. That is, with an M3 Combi also selecting sounds on the Pa.

That's because the M3 (and most Korg workstations) have a setting in the Combi Timbre for EX2, or External 2, which allows you to set a specific program bank/number for the external sound compared to the internal.

Pa series don't have this parameter.

jg::

````