Has Anyone purchased or tried these samples ?

[music service]

thank you music service for your reply and for your offer. I didnt relize they are that silly money
Do they sound like the Demos ?
How do I contact you

@thomasteele, You have a PM

[Lee]

Tommy,
That sounds nice, but I don't think I can use them. The vibrato varies way too much for me.

While the PA in general has great sound...Some of the factory sounds that I think have quality issues in the Pa are:

Harmonica 1 Vibrato
Harmonica 2 Vibrato
Cassotto 16 Key Click
Cassotto Key Click
Master Accordion Key Click
Accordion 16 8 4 Key Click
Sweet Musette Key Click
Sweet Harmonica Vibrato
Acc Clarinet OT Key Click
Acc Clarinet NT Key Click
Acc Piccolo OT Key Click
Acc Piccolo NT Key Click
Accordion 16 8 Key Click
French Musette Key Click
2 Voices Musette Key Click
3 VoicesMusette Key Click
Detune Accordion Key Click
Accordion 16 4 Key Click
Musette 2 Key Click
Tango Accordion 2 Key Click
Accordion 3 Key Click
Acc + Acc Bass Key Click
Steirisch Akk 1 Key Click

ORGAN Many of the sounds have a low frequency non musical 'WARBLE'

Violin Expr. 1 Vibrato
Violin & Viola White Noise
Concert String RX White Noise
Movie Strings 1 White Noise
Strings Ens. RX White Noise
Violin Expr. 2 White Noise
Viola Exp White Noise
Movie Strings 2 White Noise
Slow Violin White Noise
Stereo Strings White Noise
Symphonic Bows (Not clear at all, D5 has a loop problem)
Spiccato Strings Upper Octives Knock Sound
Violin GM Upper Octives Knock Sound
Viola GM Upper Octives Knock Sound
Cello Upper Octives Knock Sound
Fiddle GM Vibrato is terrible
Voice Oohs GM They are not Oohs,they are Do's ?
Humming Is not Humming?

Alto Sax Expr Vibrato
Alto Sax RX Vibrato
Tenor Sax Noise 1 Vibrato
Tenor Sax Noise 2 Vibrato
Tenor Sax Expr. 1 D3 -- D3# Different sound
Jazz Tenor 1 Vibrato
Jazz Tenor 2 Vibrato
Jazz Tenor GM Diffeent sounds on different keys
Alto Sax Growl No Growl
Cool Sax Ensemble Vibrato

Flute Switch Vibrato
Jazz Flute RX Vibrato
Clarinet PRO Vibrato
Nay Vibrato and 'white noise upper range'
Jazz Flute Expr. White Noise
Flute GM Vibrato
Piccolo GM Very weak sound, Noise, Key clicks

Lee

[Lee]

Tommy,
I would be intersted in fiding out if you agree with my list of factory sounds needing improving??
Thanks,
Lee

[TommyF]

Tommy,
I would be intersted in fiding out if you agree with my list of factory sounds needing improving??
Thanks,
Lee

I haven't forgot, but I have been so busy with OS 2.0 that I have not had time to investigate it further. It could also be interesting to know how well the competition (Yamaha, Roland etc.) handles natural vibrato.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Lee,

Did you ever review the nearest equivalent samples on the M3 with Expanded OS and the four new sample sets? If so how do they compare with the Pa2x samples?

All samples on the M3 can be upgraded because they are held in EPROM (reprogrammable) and copied to RAM before use.

The factory samples on the Pa2x can not change because they are held in ROM (not reprogrammable).

Also on the Pa2x there is very poor manufacturer and/or third party support for managing the merging and exchange of user sounds that load new samples. So I don't think any studios will be interested in working with the Pa2x to improve the sounds by doing it using user RAM.

So I think you are pushing on a door that is not only closed but it is also welded onto the motherboard You could speak with Jerry in private about it, but I think nothing can be done.

Thanks,
Rob

[TommyF]

The factory samples on the Pa2x can not change because they are held in ROM (not reprogrammable).

Are you completely sure about that? On the Pa800 all factory sounds are loaded from the SSD into RAM when the machine boots. During this "Loading PCM Data" is shown on the display and the loading takes around 35 seconds. I once took the big system file on korgpa.com - the one you use when doing a system reset - and opened it is raw data in Steinberg Wavelab. Most of it seemed to consist of compressed audio data. Since the system reset files for Pa800 and Pa2X are approximately same size - around 114 mb - I would expect the Pa2X to work the same way. If the samples are held in ROM on the Pa2X the system reset file should be much smaller since it only needed to contain the OS (6.7 mb) and the musical resources (8.1 mb).

Maybe the ROM chips that you have located on the system board are left unused? Maybe Korg decided somewhere during the development phase that it would be better to load the factory samples into RAM instead of using the ROM chips? I do find this strange, but it is the only explanation I can see. At least I am 100% sure that the factory samples are upgradeable on the Pa800 and I would expect the same on the Pa2X.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[Lee]

Tommy,
Unfortuneatly the samples AND multisamles are in ROM. Even with all the locks off, you can't modify any factory samples or multisamples.

BUT, we as a group could sure develop some of our own sounds from readily available sample sets.

I am hoping that they will some how allow us to import M3 samples...that would be cool. Right now it is't supported.

Rob,
Jerry is working on a lot right now for us. I will wait until all the dust settles and then send him a comprehensive document on the sound issues. When we got the new sounds for OS2, I was hoping Korg saw my list and created some user sounds for us. Nope, they used the factory sounds.

I have not gotten over to Sweetwater to check out the new M3 V2 sounds. I can tell you that when I auditioned the M3 a few monthes ago (V1) some of the sounds had the SAME ISSUES. Sad.

Lee

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Lee,

Thanks. On the M3 the V2 Expanded OS and supplied resources updated everything as far as I know. 128 Mbytes internal samples were revised. At least 192 Mbytes extra "external" samples were brand new never seen before supplied as three files each of 64 Mbytes to be loaded from USB drive into EXB-M256 RAM expansion. You gotta hear it for yourself!

Hi Tommy,

The Pa2x has 128 Mbytes ROM samples stored in 8 x MX23L12811TC-10 ROM chips each of which is 128 Mbit capacity. The sounds and styles are stored in SSD Flash Eprom and are upgradeable but you can't change the ROM samples.

Best regards,
Rob

[TommyF]

Tommy,
Unfortuneatly the samples AND multisamles are in ROM. Even with all the locks off, you can't modify any factory samples or multisamples.

You are right that WE can't modify the factory samples, but I know for sure that on the Pa800 the factory samples are stored in the SSD and loaded into RAM when the keyboard is booted. This would allow Korg to change the factory samples by releasing a new "System Reset" file. If you read my previous post carefully you will understand why I think the Pa2X is similar, but of course I can't be sure.

A question for you: When the Pa2X boots do you see the message "Loading PCM Data" and for how long?

There is also the possibilty that our keyboards has factory samples stored both in ROM chips and in the SSD. Then of course Korg would only be able to modify the samples stored in the SSD, but if a sample in the ROM was bad it could be replaced by another sample in the SSD.

I think that the key to understand how this works is the size of the system reset file. There must be an explanation of why it is so big - 114 mb - on both the Pa800 and Pa2X. The OS and musical resources only account for around 15 mb.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi all,

Here are some suggestions for the future ...

Tommy - you make some very good points.

There is 128 Mbytes ROM inside both the Pa2x and the Pa800, but there is also 2 Gbit (256 Mbytes) Flash memory which is divided into SSD-S and SSD-U partitions, and there is both a small amount of internal RAM and 64 Mbytes user RAM on the Pa800 and 128 Mbytes RAM as standard on the Pa2x. The other keyboards in the family have no user RAM.

As Tommy says there is every possibility that in a new OS release for the Pa2x and Pa800, Korg can trade off some of the space in the SSD-S partition and use it to deliver new samples into RAM to add to the library already available in the ROM. I don't think Korg would be keen to do it this way for anything apart from one or two samples, because of the "downsizing effect" it would have on advertised sample RAM capability.

When the Pa2x says "Loading PCM data" it is autoloading any user samples and I agree with Tommy that it might also be loading a few factory samples in almost the way Tommy describes, but to the small internal system RAM and not to the larger user RAM.

It would be quite feasible on the Pa2x and Pa800 to also use an external USB flash memory drive to provide replacement samples for the factory RAM samples, so long as there was enough RAM available. Of course the user can fit the EXB-M256 card to the Pa2x if the EXB-M128 card is not enough.

However the options for expansion in this way are much more limited for the other keyboards in the family, the Pa500, Pa588 etc. There is no RAM on the Pa500 whose samples are all in ROM, and there is only 64 Mbytes RAM to play with on the Pa800.

This potential for further improving the Pa2x and possibly the Pa800 could be delivered by a consortium of users clubbing together to fund a recording studio (eg Sharp or Nedim) to re-record and replace the "worst" of the factory samples in the way I described. We would also create a new .SET file that modified the factory sounds to change the sample references to point to the new samples in user RAM instead.

We would need to ask Korg very politely if they would modify the OS slightly to introduce the type of user PCM file manager that was recently added to the M3 Expanded OS. This allows PCM files to be switched very easily to make use of limited user RAM such as the 64 Mbytes on the Pa800.

There is almost infinite capability on the Pa2x and Pa800 that we as a user community could achieve for ourselves if we pulled in the same direction. Together, we could form a user consortium whose resources and musical skills far exceed those of Korg to improve the sample library and sounds on our instruments. All we need is the collective will and motivation. 100 people committing $100, and I'm sure either Nedim or Sharp would jump at the chance to do this for us.

Best regards,
Rob

[Lee]

Rob,
Very interesting!

First before anyone gets the wrong idea here...IMHO the PA800/PA2XPRO has LOTS of superb sounds! In my conversations about bad sounds, I am speaking personally about several sounds that do need fixing, NOT a general issue about all of them.

Well, all that said, my preference s for Korg to fix the bad samples and multisamples. If they wanted to do it the easy way...user RAM, that's ok with me. That way each owner could decide if they wanted the sounds.

Also, I think you are right on for a future capability to add to the unit.

My hope is..that Korg will help us in some way with the sounds. Both fixing some and adding some new ones.

The more I think about it...there are only a few samples with any problem, so it would not be that hard for them to fix them and maybe even add on a few new ones ...MAYBE from M3?

Also, I would just love it if we could import M3 Samples ourselves as a base to add new sounds.

Lee

[TommyF]

There is 128 Mbytes ROM inside both the Pa2x and the Pa800, but there is also 2 Gbit (256 Mbytes) Flash memory which is divided into SSD-S and SSD-U partitions, and there is both a small amount of internal RAM and 64 Mbytes user RAM on the Pa800 and 128 Mbytes RAM as standard on the Pa2x. The other keyboards in the family have no user RAM.

Rob,

This is really interesting. It looks the Korg Pa800/Pa2X has factory samples in both ROM and RAM. The ROM is 128 MB but how much RAM is used? Here are some more observations from my Pa800:

The SSD-S on my machine is used the following way (everyone can see theses numbers on their own machines by going to media mode, select the SSD-S and use Object Info and Device Info from the menu):

Total size: 229,8 MB
Factory Musical Resources: 8,5 MB
User generated content (including user samples): 74,3 MB
Free memory: 19,9 MB

This leaves 127,1 MB that is not accounted for. I think that this part of the SSD-S is used for factory samples that are loaded into RAM when the machine boots.

Rob, are you sure that only a small amount of internal RAM is available? Maybe the sound module has 128 MB RAM built-in?

Kind regards,
Tommy

[Rob Sherratt]

Also, I would just love it if we could import M3 Samples ourselves as a base to add new sounds.

Yes that would be fantastic for the users, but companies have to be careful to prevent their competitors from benefitting from their hard work

I suggest this as a possible plan, if you are serious about it!

You identify your "top priority" solo sound to improve.

Ask Nedim and/or Sharp to quote for providing a high quality multisample for use on the Pa2x to replace the one multisample in the sound that you consider to be "the worst offender". Hopefully they can find a suitable sample from an Akai library or whatever, and the price of putting it together into a Multisample might be something you and I could afford between us.

Then, cost up a project to improve the next 30 or 40 factory samples, and produce a downloadable .SET file that would replace the factory Sounds and Samples in the way I described.

Once you know the costs, you could see if there were enough users who would contribute funding to the project. You would have a password protected download, and the password would be given to contributors.

The "arranger secrets" DVD's were conceived in a similar way.

Best regards,
Rob

[Lee]

Rob,
Interesting idea...let me think on it a little..

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but are you in a indirect way saying Korg should not be asked firmly to fix the bad sounds?

We paid a big amout for a PA2XPRO, several hundred more than a M3-88, but we should pay to fix Korg PA quality issue?

Lee

[TommyF]

Tommy,
That sounds nice, but I don't think I can use them. The vibrato varies way too much for me.

While the PA in general has great sound...Some of the factory sounds that I think have quality issues in the Pa are:

Harmonica 1 Vibrato
Harmonica 2 Vibrato
Cassotto 16 Key Click
Cassotto Key Click
Master Accordion Key Click
Accordion 16 8 4 Key Click
Sweet Musette Key Click
Sweet Harmonica Vibrato
Acc Clarinet OT Key Click
Acc Clarinet NT Key Click
Acc Piccolo OT Key Click
Acc Piccolo NT Key Click
Accordion 16 8 Key Click
French Musette Key Click
2 Voices Musette Key Click
3 VoicesMusette Key Click
Detune Accordion Key Click
Accordion 16 4 Key Click
Musette 2 Key Click
Tango Accordion 2 Key Click
Accordion 3 Key Click
Acc + Acc Bass Key Click
Steirisch Akk 1 Key Click

ORGAN Many of the sounds have a low frequency non musical 'WARBLE'

Violin Expr. 1 Vibrato
Violin & Viola White Noise
Concert String RX White Noise
Movie Strings 1 White Noise
Strings Ens. RX White Noise
Violin Expr. 2 White Noise
Viola Exp White Noise
Movie Strings 2 White Noise
Slow Violin White Noise
Stereo Strings White Noise
Symphonic Bows (Not clear at all, D5 has a loop problem)
Spiccato Strings Upper Octives Knock Sound
Violin GM Upper Octives Knock Sound
Viola GM Upper Octives Knock Sound
Cello Upper Octives Knock Sound
Fiddle GM Vibrato is terrible
Voice Oohs GM They are not Oohs,they are Do's ?
Humming Is not Humming?

Alto Sax Expr Vibrato
Alto Sax RX Vibrato
Tenor Sax Noise 1 Vibrato
Tenor Sax Noise 2 Vibrato
Tenor Sax Expr. 1 D3 -- D3# Different sound
Jazz Tenor 1 Vibrato
Jazz Tenor 2 Vibrato
Jazz Tenor GM Diffeent sounds on different keys
Alto Sax Growl No Growl
Cool Sax Ensemble Vibrato

Flute Switch Vibrato
Jazz Flute RX Vibrato
Clarinet PRO Vibrato
Nay Vibrato and 'white noise upper range'
Jazz Flute Expr. White Noise
Flute GM Vibrato
Piccolo GM Very weak sound, Noise, Key clicks

Lee

Lee, I agree that the vibrato is not very good in the sounds on your list. What bothers me is not so much that the vibrato speed and depth varies, but more that the looping is really bad in several cases - especially in the violins and the flutes. You can hear this as an unwanted lower frequency sound or in some cases as a small click at the loop point.

I can't hear the knock sounds you mention. Can you hear them in OS 2.0 as well? Maybe Korg has fixed this?

The white noise in the violins is really bad!

The Key Clicks in the Accordians I have no problem with. I think they add to the realism. However you can edit them out very easily in sound edit mode since both the key on and key off sound is a seperate sample with its own OSC.

I agree that Korg should do something about this if it is technically possible (and as you can see from my other posts in this thread I think it is). However it is not something I would expect to pay extra for.

Kind regards,
Tommy