What is wrong with my M50?

pumpindave · Post by **pumpindave** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:42 pm

Ok I have one more scenario:

Take program D080 for example (it can be don with any other monophonic program).

Play a loud D in the lowest octave and then hold it an play any of the higher octave notes...

Same behaviour - you don't need to play an arrpeggio - just a simple low to high portamento with a monophonic sound will screw it up.

If this is no bug in the OS it is still a bug in the sound design!

Any news from KORG if this is going to be fixed?

Regards
pumpindave

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:11 pm

Oddly, while I have this problem on my M50 (and I had it well before I saw this post), I do NOT have the problem on my Triton. So does my Triton have a bug since this behavior DOESN'T happen on the Triton?

I don't think so.

I would think hitting a new key would trigger a new note, not stretch the original one. If it's stretching the original note TO the next key instead of triggering a new note at the key, it IS a bug IMO.

But if it's not a bug, can we have this "feature" removed?

-Mc

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:41 am

Is not happening on my M50, no matter which monophonic patch I choose. Thanks God!!!

BTW, I upgraded to the latest OS version.

pumpindave · Post by **pumpindave** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:25 am

mocando wrote:Is not happening on my M50, no matter which monophonic patch I choose. Thanks God!!!

BTW, I upgraded to the latest OS version.

So if it ist really not reproducable on you M50 - I get more and more to the point that this behaviour is a serious bug.

Did you try also the easy one:

- Program D080
- hit a loud D note in the lower octaves
- hold it
- hit a high D note
- listen to the screwed up sound

It is reproducable on my M50 88 at any time

Synastikki · Post by **Synastikki** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:23 am

solutions for this kind of behaviour:
1. Take of the "legato" tag when the sound turns into a Mono sound
2. when playing these kind of long runs, don't play them legato all the way.

and I tried this on my triton, with program Phat Saw Lead (I think it was D012) and the same thing happens... not so severely as in troys demo but there is huge noise and aliasing going on, because the pitch is stretching to it's extremes...

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:54 am

McHale wrote: I would think hitting a new key would trigger a new note, not stretch the original one.

McHale, although I haven't quoted your post in it's entirity, I completely agree with everything you say.

I am starting to wonder if anything that gets said on this forum (I know it's not an 'official' Korg forum) actually gets acted upon?

Yes, we have visits from Korg reps/employees etc, but it seems to me that the only thing that happens when we get a visit is there is some 'explanation'
(dare I say 'excuse'?) for why these strange things are happening...
no promises to get things sorted out.

I recently bought a Nord Electro 2 off ebay. (it's a fantastic keyboard!)
One note was only playing intermitently, so I sent an email to Nords technical dept. asking if I could fix the problem myself.
Within two days I'd had 2 personal emails back explaining (with diagrams) how to dismantle the keyboard, and what to do.

Problem solved.

Now - open invite (especially to Troy).... try sending an email to Korgs technical dept to help sort out this problem,
and let us know what sort of help/response you get?

I wait for the news with bated breath!!!

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:57 am

Synastikki wrote:solutions for this kind of behaviour:
1. Take of the "legato" tag when the sound turns into a Mono sound
2. when playing these kind of long runs, don't play them legato all the way.

Very practical advice - and easy to do on the fly.

.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:57 am

jpscoey wrote: I recently bought a Nord Electro 2 off ebay. (it's a fantastic keyboard!)
One note was only playing intermitently, so I sent an email to Nords technical dept. asking if I could fix the problem myself.
Within two days I'd had 2 personal emails back explaining (with diagrams) how to dismantle the keyboard, and what to do.

Problem solved.

Now - open invite (especially to Troy).... try sending an email to Korgs technical dept to help sort out this problem,
and let us know what sort of help/response you get?

jpscoey, you can expect that kind of treatment from a small company like Nord. Even more if they are expanding, like they are right now. They can't have the luxury of making a customer wait.
I'm not saying Korg support is bad or shouldn't be that fast, but one just can imagine the amount of support tickets Korg opens in a day.

I'm perfectly sure Korg people is taking this comments seriously, and if they can really determine that there is a failure, they'll acknowledge it and fix it. If they are not responding I think it means they can't determine is really a flaw in each and every keyboard sold.

As Synastikki just said, you can indeed reproduce the noise on a Triton, which by this time should be a pretty proved board with all bugs sorted out.

I can't hear it on my keyboard, maybe I'm not such a talented player yet, but I think the workaround already discussed is enough for the time being.

Lets wait for Korg people to finish testing throughly this new keyboard and hope for a final fix with a new firmware.

Cheers

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:17 am

mocando wrote:... one just can imagine the amount of support tickets Korg opens in a day.

...if there is a failure, they'll acknowledge it and fix it.

This is the point I'm trying to make - there are nods & winks that 'yes we see your concerns', but no firm statements have been made so far (not that I know of).

With the greatest respect, I noticed that you joined this forum in April? - I'm a relative newcomer myself (approx 8 months), but these sorts of questions
have been asked for many months now - and no definitive answers have been given.

Your point about 'the amount of support' Korg has to deal with in one day says it all really - if the product is good in the first place,
then not too much support would be neccessary? (don't misread this - I think the M50 is a superb keyboard... my favourite)

As for the 'Acknowlege it & fix it' - that's another point I was making - there seem to be 'reasons' for the misbehavior of the equipment, but not neccessarily an acknowlegement that there's anything wrong...therefore no timespan on when these issues (which are only brought up by incompetent playing???) will be addressed.

.

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:38 am

Yup, you are right. The silence can be taken in many ways, like: What an annoying bunch, complaining for a keyboard that is perfect as it is... or: Gulp

we screwed big. Let's fix it before more people finds out, or many other we can just imagine.

Official word is official word. If its going to be "The M50 does that when stretched that way and there is no fix possible, so live with it", then so be it. But please Korg SAY IT!!!

BTW, no disrespect whatsoever, brother

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:16 am

Well, Jerry *DID* kinda say that. His explanation works for me, I just wonder if it's something they can or can't fix. He completely understands the cause of it (better than most of us) and could explain it to the higher ups if it *IS* something that can be fixed.

As an FYI, I need to retract my statement above. I got my triton to do it. It did it differently, but it did do it. So this does seem common in Korg gear. Since I don't own Yamahas or Rolands, I can't say if they do it as well.

As far as Korg support and fixing bugs, I will always give Korg high marks in this area and Jerry specifically gets a 10. He answers questions and complaints in his spare time. He doesn't get paid for it and most of the time, it's negative things he has to respond to. But he always does (when he can) and he's always a gentleman. I reported what I considered a bug for my Triton way back in the day and it was something that nobody else, and I mean NOBODY else had suffered from until I pointed out how/why it happens. Then people replicated it and understood my point. It was fixed in a later OS release. And to this day, they have maintained that fix in all later OS's on all later keyboards. Korg considered it a feature request, I considered it a bug. Either way, this fixed it. The day Yamaha or Roland give individual users that kind of attention, I'll maybe consider buying one again - luckily, I know it will never happen.

I'll also bet $100 bucks that people at Korg are investigating this. I have seen Jerry work. He does things in the background and when he has a definitive answer, he'll say what he can. Until he has an answer, there's no point in saying anything. It usually just causes more grief.

-Mc

Synastikki · Post by **Synastikki** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:54 am

In this point i would like to make an example out of synth world to realize what is really happening with this "problem"

Most of us have eaten chewing gum. So lets think that a chewing gum is a sample. And in this case on program (or a multisample) is made out of many chewing gums. When you play just individual notes your keyboard checks which "gum" is closest to that notes and stretches the "gum" to match that note. But when you use the legato function and play low note first, it plays the low "gum" obviously, but if we continue playing legato up the gum stretches and stretches and we all now what is going to happen when the stretching is taken to extreme. The gum becomes thinner and thinner, starts to break and there might become holes and all that kind of stuff to it. And if we continue stretching, in the end the gum will break in two. This same stuff happens with the sound. The more you stretch the more unwanted noise and stuff you get. This is pure physics and it is pretty hard to "fix".

mocando · Post by **mocando** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:17 pm

Your explanation is Crystal clear. But... Then why is people complaining? Shouldn't this "stretching" of a sample be part of the specifications? I mean, it should say: Maximum sample legato dephase (for saying something stupid): 48 semitones, or 64 semitones. I'm speaking my arse out, ok?

I mean, if Korg specs this, then nobody will say is a "problem". And maybe (and surely) different keyboards should have different numbers. Also, some samples might stretch better than others.

Am I making sense?

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:53 pm

Synastikki wrote:solutions for this kind of behaviour:
1. Take of the "legato" tag when the sound turns into a Mono sound
2. when playing these kind of long runs, don't play them legato all the way.

#1 is still the best solution to avoid this issue. This is "spec" for the product, but I nor Korg are going to defend that this spec is "perfect". We cannot send you instructions how to open the unit and fix it because it isn't mechanical.

And we can't teach you how to recode the OS for your keyboard.

So rather than fighting with this behavior for now I suggest you use the reliable work-around we've pointed out.

Korg is well aware of this issue but we're not going to make promises about a change in the spec. That's all I can say.

Regards,

Jerry

klarnet basowy · Post by **klarnet basowy** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:54 pm

jerrythek wrote:
Synastikki wrote:solutions for this kind of behaviour:
1. Take of the "legato" tag when the sound turns into a Mono sound
2. when playing these kind of long runs, don't play them legato all the way.
#1 is still the best solution to avoid this issue. This is "spec" for the product, but I nor Korg are going to defend that this spec is "perfect". We cannot send you instructions how to open the unit and fix it because it isn't mechanical.

And we can't teach you how to recode the OS for your keyboard.

So rather than fighting with this behavior for now I suggest you use the reliable work-around we've pointed out.

Korg is well aware of this issue but we're not going to make promises about a change in the spec. That's all I can say.

Regards,

Jerry

Mine has identical problem. A real problem when you play leads in portamento going up and down at the extremes of the keys. I've never had this problem with my old N5ex and also with the M3.

It would be "nice" if this problem will be solved in a OS update.