THE NEW KORG M4 !!!!

[ozy]

I don't speculate and don't make forecasts.

I just describe how industrial production works.

Take the pattern I described, and compare it with ascent and decline of ANY musical instrument Empire.

New products are not determined by NAMM approaching.

Otherwise, you could make FOUR NAMMs a year, so technology would advance at twice the speed and you would sell double the keyboards...

You don't get new products from "wanting" them or from "needding to put them out", or from "a cycle being ended". The Minimoog cycle was ending, time was ripe for a polysynth, abd Moog couldn't produce and sell one, and the company went belly up. You get new products if you CAN make them.

New products are determined by the money you put into research and machine tools.

And Korg obviously hasn't done much research and investment lately.

Its recent products are patently the fruit of salesmen brainstorming (uhm... "brain" is maybe an overstatement), trying to make a new thingamajig out of old ideas.

Not a single engineer was involved in the process, or the m50-61 would have never been thought of.

If Korg had in store "something" (anything) better than "micro-keys for pea-brained DJs" they would have used it in their struggle against successful newcomers like Clavia, not to mention Yamaha (come on: is a "red stage piano" with 12 presets and no splits a serious answer to the nord stage? even to the nord electro? Is it an answer to the roland v-piano?).

Korg totally missed the "analogue revival" boat, and finally, after the mopho, the prophet08, the plethora of small 300 us$ analogue monosynths (dopefer etc)... they finally dig into their history, think of the ms-20... and get into the market... with the monotron?!?

Any kid can buy a used darkenergy for 200 usd and solo on a 5-octaves keyboard with velocity and aftertouch control. If he is in the money, he can spend 500 and get a Mopho... An Korg replies with the Stylophone-on-Ritalin?!?

Is THAT the technology they have in store for announcing a groundbreaking keyboard at the NAMM?

You say that "it's 3 years since they did anything, so they HAVE to do something". Wrong. A serious recession happened. We could lose 10 years in serious technologic advancement. Look what happened between mid 70s [analogue peak] and late 80s [Korg m1]. If japan hadn't somehow profited from the US crisis, we would have missed even the only true event of those years, the DX7.

This time, Japan is not richer than US.

And the Chinese can't yet build decent instruments. Wake me when CME will be able to provide user manuals and technical support for their products.

Korg took 12 years to overcome the production problems (=lack of capital problems) of the Oasys. I am afraid that that miscalculated effort drained them of any energy for some time.

The M3 was supposed to be the "money making", "mass-market" offspring of the Oasys project, the way of financing the NEXT project by monetizing the Oasys technology, and it flunked.

It could take 10 years to recover from such a miscalculation, in the current economic environment.

Frankly, before Korg releases something serious, I expect news about some kind of money infusion or partnership.

This, not "M4", could be the "great surprise".

[wheresgrant]

As a 20 year fan of Korg products they have totally abandoned stage performers in trade for an 'entry' market. I've owned DW8000, M3, N5, N364, triton, Tr-rack, Triton LE, Karma and now I'm a happy owner of a dying Extreme that needs to be retired and I've been looking for something comparable that's rackable so I can port it easily from stage, to studio, to rehearsal. What are my choices... nothing. Either an unprotected M3M on a keyboard stand in a makeshift hardcase... or find a 10 yr old Triton rack and search for PCM expansion cards. I get nausea when I see CRAP like the MicroX, PS60 offered as 'stage' alternatives. It makes me want to drive to headquarters in LI and yell at somebody. I understand it, yet I don't understand it. If I were a true touring or session player I would just say'bye'. Yamaha, Kurz and Roland seem to be the manufacturers still interested in providing a variety of choices for musicians to invest in. Yamaha has 3 incarnations of their Motif rack. Yamaha 3... Korg 0. Korg just wants to market toys to teenagers.

A bit of a rant... but honestly... they started this suckage with the LE... flashy features, substandard build quality, without expanding their mid-range and upper end options. When I want to turn to retail for Korg's new market solution I'm often left with scanning Ebay to purchase yesterday's gear and potential problem.

[ozy]

amen to wheresgrant.

My stage setup is korg-heavy (see below my "signature"), but the list doesn't tell everything:

* the M3 is there as an all-purpose tool (sequencer, sampler, ecc). I bought the 88 versione with the idea of making it my bottom keyboard, and slowly downgraded it to swiss knife. Backup vocoder, backup EPs, all purpose sound generator for quick rehearsal sessions...

BTW: lack of rack-mountability of the M3M was the biggest snafu in the musical industry in the last 10 years.

Every time I place it on its clumsy stand, I plan leaving it home next time I gig.

* when I needed good electric pianos, I surveyed the market and finally bought a Fantom+srx-12 because Korg had nothing serious to offer in a rack.

* I need excellent winds and brasses, and I use the yamaha VLs because the "falling bones" program on m3... just makes me think of viagra

* the other Korg modules, I keep for nostalgia and for early 90's sounds for Zawinul covers, because the records of that era scream "korg": you can't use anything but a korg M1 to get that awful but evocative "tenor sax" or that "lfo piano". But boy, I am talking about reproducing sounds which are 20 years old in a korg-oriented cover band. What about creating new sounds?

It's a bit like using a cheap transistor organ if you are in a Doors cover band. Ok, you need it, it's perfect, but man, would you say that Gibson or Vox are at the cutting hedge of technology? [oh, oops! They are DEAD].

There's not a single Korg tool of the last 5 years I bought for intrinsic POWER.

On the other hand, the DVP-1 kicks ass and the Wavestation is still magic.

[wheresgrant]

My T-Extreme has been the anchor of my stage rig for 5 years now. That's more than 500 performances. Prior to that it was a Triton Classic. Now that my Extreme is showing a need for retirement (Vol pot is malfunctioning, numerical buttons not working) I have nothing that I can think of replacing it in a rackable format with expection of the M3M on a stand (I'm using a wireless keytar as a controller and I need sampling). I've tried to embrace Roland and I just can't find a common ground with their sound set and waveforms (I need gritty dance oriented synth, stabs, and leads). Yet, they have the product formats that support a stage performers needs. I had a Fantom S and sold it because I was more in tune with the Triton/M3 editing architecture. But think of this: Roland had the JV-SR series... starting with the XP-50.... spawned three great work stations (XP60, XP-80, XP30) in addition to producing several rack versions (JV 1080, 2080, 3080)... then bridged it's new SRX platform with the original Fantom and VX5080 rack which accepted BOTH JV and SRX expansion cards. All along the Fantom XR rack has been supported. Heck, if I wanted to I could use SonicCell as a live stage module. Do setups at home on a PC and just bring that tiny footprint with a controller to shows.What does Korg offer? The discontinued MicroX with bad keybed and flimsy build quality.

The other keyboard player in my band uses a Motif rack (with controller). The guy can zip in and out of shows with lightwieght setup. I think he secretly laughs at me.

The reason why the M3 hasn't sold well is because KORG has not supported their customers well. I don't want this rant to take over this thread, and I apologize for even breathing it for die hard fans who spend most of their time in the studio and not on the stage... it's just frustrating when I see KORG discontinuting the M3 after 3 years when they still haven't found a way to bridge original Triton owners over to the new platform without leaving them, their setups and reliance of the previous decade long platform in the lurch.

[Synthoid]

it's just frustrating when I see KORG discontinuting the M3 after 3 years

Not yet... it's still in production.

That topic was discussed in length here:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=56687

[ozy]

The M3 may not be formally discontinued,

but it certainly has been derelict.

No chance of upgrading it, nothing comparable to the SRX expansions (and pianos and EPs, not to mention winds, need it), no way of adding RAM,

not even the simple OS fixes which have been requested by many (see the "m3 wishlist" thread: much of that could've been done with some man-hours, no hardware required).

Point is: after the M3 letdown, it would be hard to trust M4.

[Synthoid]

No chance of upgrading it, nothing comparable to the SRX expansions (and pianos and EPs, not to mention winds, need it), no way of adding RAM

Yes, so I'm making the best of it!

Upgrades, expansions, and more RAM won't make more music for us, that's our job.

[BillW]

No chance of upgrading it, nothing comparable to the SRX expansions (and pianos and EPs, not to mention winds, need it), no way of adding RAM

Yes, so I'm making the best of it!

Upgrades, expansions, and more RAM won't make more music for us, that's our job.

+1. These threads never cease to crack me up.

[Synthoid]

+1. These threads never cease to crack me up.

Yup.

Back in the 80's when I bought my Ensoniq ESQ-1 I didn't worry about upgrades or expansions. There were a few companies selling memory cartridges back then with extra sounds... but that was about it! I even knew a few people who owned synths that didn't have MIDI.

Today, people want more sounds, features and upgrades even before they take their precious keyboard out of the box.

[Akos Janca]

+1. These threads never cease to crack me up.

Yup.

Back in the 80's when I bought my Ensoniq ESQ-1 I didn't worry about upgrades or expansions. There were a few companies selling memory cartridges back then with extra sounds... but that was about it! I even knew a few people who owned synths that didn't have MIDI.

Today, people want more sounds, features and upgrades even before they take their precious keyboard out of the box.

+1+1

OFF: How I loved my Ensoniq ASR-10 (keyboard version)! Good old days!

ON: I have seen the M3 XPanded products listed as "run-out" at our local distributor's site in Hungary. Maybe it means "discontinued" but I'm not sure, because the module, the 73- and 88-key versions were marked as "run-out" but the 61 key version not (accident?).

[cello]

+1. These threads never cease to crack me up.

Yup.

Back in the 80's when I bought my Ensoniq ESQ-1 I didn't worry about upgrades or expansions. There were a few companies selling memory cartridges back then with extra sounds... but that was about it! I even knew a few people who owned synths that didn't have MIDI.

Today, people want more sounds, features and upgrades even before they take their precious keyboard out of the box.

+1+1
How I loved my Ensoniq ASR-10 (keyboard version)! Good old days!

+ another 1

And the strange thing is all these keyboards are capable of being edited to create new sounds the way they are, when they come out of the box...

[ozy]

No chance of upgrading it, nothing comparable to the SRX expansions (and pianos and EPs, not to mention winds, need it), no way of adding RAM

Yes, so I'm making the best of it!Upgrades, expansions, and more RAM won't make more music for us, that's our job.)

Yeah, really.

I create new sounds on a modular synt, or on analogues, or on VL-synthesis digitals.

I use master keyboards who've got 20 years on them.

If you feel like "rolling your own", that's the way. Do you do it? REAL synth programming?

But when I spend 3400 euros for a workstation whose job (and hype) is STREAMLINING my work,

I am FED UP of having to buy new instruments because they've got scsi interfaces and scsi goes out of business, IDE hard disks and IDE goes out of business,

and because I can't use samples I did 15 years ago because hardware development is not planned in advance.

Come on...

The M3 is not in the league of the synths I use for real sound invention,

and for its league [= composition tool] it's too quickly obsolescing.

If it sounded like my prophet or SEM or VL-1, I'd be patient with its shortocomings,

but since it doesn't (not even remotely), at least I shoudln't worry about erasing samples to make room for new ones, or getting out of memory after I load 4 tunes I recorded in the sequencer while improvising.

EITHER Korg does good-sounding synths,

OR it produces long-lasting, expensive workstations.

The formes, it doesn't.

The latter... they discontinued the Oasys after 5 years and the M3 has topped improving after, what... 2 years?

Whatever.

[ozy]

by the way...

... today I had to buy an additional keyboard in order to backup the oberheim master for live "bottom keyboard plus EP" use...

... and for the first time in 25 years my "large one for splits" is not a Korg.

Welcome to my new Kurzweil pc3.

so, suddendly the is M3 taking another little step towards the door... after just 2 years I own it.

the 01/W prox had lasted in the same role 13 years, its huge weight notwithstanding. I had added moog filters to it, I had explored it in depth because it was challenging to my ears.

The Korg T1 had lasted 5 years. Would have been worth keeping for 20, if it wasn't for the 01/w's master features (got the 01/w as a bottom keyboard, and kept a couple of M1ex for the t3 sounds).

When I bought the M3 (due to physical exhaustion of the 01/w keybed due to usage), I had it customized because I hoped I'd keep it for a decade...

... and here I am. Didn't think for 5 minutes of buying another M3 as a backup road companion.

Deeply disappointing.

And as you may see I am NOT a "fashion victim". I change home address more often than I replace my main synth.

[vEddY]

My T-Extreme has been the anchor of my stage rig for 5 years now. That's more than 500 performances. Prior to that it was a Triton Classic. Now that my Extreme is showing a need for retirement (Vol pot is malfunctioning, numerical buttons not working) I have nothing that I can think of replacing it in a rackable format with expection of the M3M on a stand (I'm using a wireless keytar as a controller and I need sampling). I've tried to embrace Roland and I just can't find a common ground with their sound set and waveforms (I need gritty dance oriented synth, stabs, and leads).

The other keyboard player in my band uses a Motif rack (with controller). The guy can zip in and out of shows with lightwieght setup. I think he secretly laughs at me.

Try and get another Triton Extreme, there are still plenty of them on the market second-hand. Furthermore, getting replacement knobs and keys shouldn't be a problem. Or, get Triton Rack, load it with EXB-cards, and get pretty much the same thing without the tube

Motif doesn't do it for me, in any aspect of music. That's just me, of course...

And a more broad, general view... One of the key aspects that bothers me with KORG keyboards to no end (and I really mean - NO END) is the fact that I need to re-do all of my sounds for every single next synth they "upgrade their lineup" with. I had to do it from Trinity to Triton, then it was a easier when going from Triton to Triton Studio, then again for OASYS, then - if I was to follow the "upgrade path" - again for M3. I simply refuse to do that, and M3-M is going out the door very soon. And that's why I bought a Kurz PC3K8. In the past 4-5 months of owning a K2500R that I got on ebay for peanuts, I've been able to assemble a nice collection (albeit a small one) of sounds that I can use. Even bought some Kurz Sample CD's to have the biggest possible selection of sounds possible, so I can pick and select them. Now going to PC3K, it's really easy. Copied samples to USB stick, all of the .KRZ, .K25, and whatnot sounds as well, and I have all of my sounds in a new keyboard. Just playing, not wasting hundreds and hundreds of hours re-doing all of the sounds that I need. And being a pain in the ass I am about the sounds, God only knows how much time I'd need to re-do my OASYS sounds for the M3 if I was to do that. I never even tried, though, considered that to be a step back, as we say here, "from horse to a donkey" move.

That being said, OASYS is - by far - the easiest keyboard to program, with the biggest selection of kickass sounds, ever. Kurz sucks for that with its shitty menu-driven screen, but has compatibility.

[wheresgrant]

My T-Extreme has been the anchor of my stage rig for 5 years now. That's more than 500 performances. Prior to that it was a Triton Classic. Now that my Extreme is showing a need for retirement (Vol pot is malfunctioning, numerical buttons not working) I have nothing that I can think of replacing it in a rackable format with expection of the M3M on a stand (I'm using a wireless keytar as a controller and I need sampling). I've tried to embrace Roland and I just can't find a common ground with their sound set and waveforms (I need gritty dance oriented synth, stabs, and leads).

The other keyboard player in my band uses a Motif rack (with controller). The guy can zip in and out of shows with lightwieght setup. I think he secretly laughs at me.

Try and get another Triton Extreme, there are still plenty of them on the market second-hand. Furthermore, getting replacement knobs and keys shouldn't be a problem. Or, get Triton Rack, load it with EXB-cards, and get pretty much the same thing without the tube

Motif doesn't do it for me, in any aspect of music. That's just me, of course...

And a more broad, general view... One of the key aspects that bothers me with KORG keyboards to no end (and I really mean - NO END) is the fact that I need to re-do all of my sounds for every single next synth they "upgrade their lineup" with. I had to do it from Trinity to Triton, then it was a easier when going from Triton to Triton Studio, then again for OASYS, then - if I was to follow the "upgrade path" - again for M3. I simply refuse to do that, and M3-M is going out the door very soon. And that's why I bought a Kurz PC3K8. In the past 4-5 months of owning a K2500R that I got on ebay for peanuts, I've been able to assemble a nice collection (albeit a small one) of sounds that I can use. Even bought some Kurz Sample CD's to have the biggest possible selection of sounds possible, so I can pick and select them. Now going to PC3K, it's really easy. Copied samples to USB stick, all of the .KRZ, .K25, and whatnot sounds as well, and I have all of my sounds in a new keyboard. Just playing, not wasting hundreds and hundreds of hours re-doing all of the sounds that I need. And being a pain in the ass I am about the sounds, God only knows how much time I'd need to re-do my OASYS sounds for the M3 if I was to do that. I never even tried, though, considered that to be a step back, as we say here, "from horse to a donkey" move.

.

Those are my two options really.... either a used 10 yr old rack with no USB, no CF or smart media and no PCM Expansion... or buy another used Extreme for the interim while this is repaired.... does it make any sense in why I don't feel like shelling out another $1800 for a new platform for just a stage board?

In contrast I see rackable Motif's a plenty in the $400-700 range and used Motif's in the $600-800 range. Amazing... for $1500 I could get a complete identical setup in rack and in a board... be able to move patches freely back and forth. And Yamaha is still supporting their Motif. Amazing.

My days with Korg are numbered.