No... it cannot be possible

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:06 am

SoulBe wrote:Hi,

as mentioned above it is described in the Oasys tips section. As far as I see you´ve put up the settings right.
Initialize the karma module before assigning. Uncheck the karma modules.
Keep in mind to change the midi channel changed, because scene 1 affects sounds on midi channel 1, scene 2 on midi channel 2 etc. Be also sure that you have switched the real times knobs/Karma switched that you are switching karma scenes.
You can also assing more than 1 timbre to a midi channel to have more timbres layered per midi channel.
Finally you can have more scenes switched on at the same time, to combine midi channels.

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 309
Location: Germany
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Live switching between sounds

Excellent, glad you came to the same conclusion. Post at Karma-Lab was on Feb 26, 2009. But in any case, this is a useful trick to switch on/off timbres using KARMA scenes, while not using any additional hidden polyphony.

aron · Post by **aron** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:14 am

Thanks guys. This is my first keyboard with Karma (Stephen I remember long ago when you had it working in MAX I think).

I think it's because I don't understand what a scene does and how it relates to the switches. I will read the documentation on this.

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:25 am

aron wrote:Thanks guys. This is my first keyboard with Karma (Stephen I remember long ago when you had it working in MAX I think).

I think it's because I don't understand what a scene does and how it relates to the switches. I will read the documentation on this.

Simply: a Scene stores the current settings of the 8 (KARMA) switches and 8 sliders. It's a snapshot.

You have 5 Control Layers. Skipping the Master Layer for the moment, there is one layer for each Module. Each Module has it's own 16 RTC, and it's own Control Layer. However, in this case, you are dealing with the Master Layer, which can control any of the 4 Modules, or the Performance RTP. So, here we are assigning 4 of the switches in the Master Layer to do this.

Yeah, MAX. That was about a hundred years ago...but KARMA started in MAX. MAX is great for introducing non-programmers to the concepts of programming.

Mike Conway · Post by **Mike Conway** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:08 pm

aron wrote:Maybe I can't have 8 sounds at once like my Kurzweil, but maybe 4 will do.

If you follow this, you can assign 4 pairs to 4 channels (8 sounds), as opposed to the 4 groups of 4 used in the example. Here's a quickie video of the process:

KARMA Combi Layer switching (HD selection available)

Jon Lord · Post by **Jon Lord** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Sorry to hijack the thread. Is there any logical reason why the mute timbre button does not "kill(mute)" the miditrack when using external gear, it basically does nothing if its set to external. (not in front of my M3, but im pretty sure it was like this). Muting the midioutput when muting the track when using external devices would be very useful. (i guess this is the same for the kronos)

---

The Karma trick seems to be also useful but seems to be much work for something simple so hopefully Dan's suggestions goes through to the engineers to get a true mute function.

RC-IA · Post by **RC-IA** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:25 pm

Global menu: could we get in a next update the ability to use SST or not. i don't need SST and would prefer having more polyphony.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:35 pm

I don't think that disabling SST would give you a lot more polyphony, IMHO. But, perhaps Dan can say something more about it.

RC-IA · Post by **RC-IA** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:38 pm

EvilDragon wrote:I don't think that disabling SST would give you a lot more polyphony, IMHO. But, perhaps Dan can say something more about it.

yep, let's wait

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:20 pm

RC-IA wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:I don't think that disabling SST would give you a lot more polyphony, IMHO. But, perhaps Dan can say something more about it.
yep, let's wait

Disabling SST would not yield more polyphony. Among other things, SST only uses polyphony during the transition between sounds (or for as long as you hold notes from the previous sound), and only for notes which are actually sounding. There's an "SST active" indicator on the Performance Meters page, if you're curious, which shows the SST state. Also, if new notes are played and more resources are required, SST notes can be stolen to free up polyphony.

Additionally, note that the KRONOS already has more polyphony than typical 128-voice sample playback synths (and VA synths typically have far fewer than that). For instance:

SGX-1: 400 mono voices (100 dual-stereo notes)
HD-1: 140 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices
CX-3: 180 voices
EP-1: 104 voices
AL-1: 80 voices

The MS-20EX has relatively low polyphony at 40 voices, but on the other hand it's a VA synth with a modular patch-panel and really distinctive filters. The MOD-7 has 52 voices, which may seem on the low side - but when I looked into what it would take to approximate its capabilities on a VAST synth, it seemed like it would take 57 or 58 VAST blocks, resulting in polyphony of around 8 notes.

It seems like the issue raised here isn't about polyphony or voice-stealing per se, but rather about the ability to mute the MIDI input to Timbres in a Combi (so that voices aren't used), rather than muting the Timbres' audio output. I absolutely understand why this is desirable in some cases, and while I can't make any guarantees, I've added this to my personal wish-list.

Hope this helps,

Dan

RC-IA · Post by **RC-IA** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:34 pm

thanx dan, actually i had never need more polyphony on oasys, so i think i'll be find with kronos

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:45 pm

Let's sum the average of polyphony purely mathematically. I'm aware that this might not be the real life scenario case, however, it's a fun example and a bit of trivia.

Kronos doesn't offer you all that polyphony for all those engines AT ONCE. If that were possible, it would be a bloody miracle, I say! So, when you state:

SGX-1: 100 voices
EP-1: 104 voices
HD-1: 140 voices
AL-1: 80 voices
CX-3: 200 voices
STR-1: 40 voices
MOD-7 52 voices
MS-20EX: 40 voices
PolysixEX: 180 voices

you don't really get 936 voices (all engines summed together). You get 104 voices, arithmetically (936/9). Or 137 voices if you count in that SGX-1 actually uses 400 voices (100 voices dual stereo). So it's not really that much higher than a regular 128 poly board

However, I wouldn't be surprised that, for whatever reasons, the actual number of available notes to play is even lower in practice.

ChristianRock · Post by **ChristianRock** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:55 pm

I think the suggestion that Dan made is still the best one but it has been overlooked.
Create a couple of variations of the sounds you are after (i.e. piano w/strings,piano without strings, and piano w/strings and bell pad, for example). Have them sit side by side on your set list. You can switch seamlessly between one another.
I think that would work for most live situations, until Korg embraces Dan's to-do list

ED, that's some senseless math right there. If Korg kills the MS20EX engine then it becomes a better board by your math. That's bean-counter logic.

drama1 · Post by **drama1** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:19 pm

I have been using Karma for smooth program/combi changing for the last two years on my M3 and it works GREAT. With SST on the Kronos, it's my understanding if you are playing piano, change to strings and then change to brass, the piano patch will cut off. Using Karma the piano is still playing until you lift up the sustain pedal. It allows me to use only one board for live performance, which is great.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:50 pm

EvilDragon wrote:Let's sum the average of polyphony purely mathematically. I'm aware that this might not be the real life scenario case, however, it's a fun example and a bit of trivia.

Kronos doesn't offer you all that polyphony for all those engines AT ONCE.

I've never claimed that it does.

EvilDragon wrote:So it's not really that much higher than a regular 128 poly board

In practical terms...

Stereo piano on a Motif, Fantom, or PC3: 64 notes
SGX-1 piano on the KRONOS: 100 notes

Standard sample playback on a Motif, Fantom, or PC3: 128 notes
HD-1 on the KRONOS: 140 notes

Simple VA on a PC3 (one antialiasing oscillator and 4-pole resonant filter): 64 notes
PolysixEX on KRONOS: 180 notes

More full-featured VA on a PC3 (pair of antialising osc with sync, noise generator, pair of 2-pole resonant filters): 32 notes
AL-1 on KRONOS: 80 notes

- Dan

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:01 pm

drama1 wrote:I have been using Karma for smooth program/combi changing for the last two years on my M3 and it works GREAT. With SST on the Kronos, it's my understanding if you are playing piano, change to strings and then change to brass, the piano patch will cut off. Using Karma the piano is still playing until you lift up the sustain pedal. It allows me to use only one board for live performance, which is great.

The M3 and KARMA are certainly powerful performance tools!

But, when you change Combis on the M3, all notes cut off.

When you change Programs, notes may sustain, but all previous effects are silenced. On the KRONOS with SST, the previous effects remain intact alongside the new ones.

Best regards,

Dan