Korg's European delivery misery: status update

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:00 pm

dangerousdave wrote:
michelkeijzers wrote: The main reason why people have got it cheaper is that the US shops do not mention the price of $3000 on the shipping package but maybe half. So you only pay half of import and half of tax.
I'd rather pay the extra tax than import and be dependent on the US seller committing tax fraud to get a good deal.

That's true, but still it's quite strange that the same synth is costing here so much more than in the US if you remove the shipping cost and import tax.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:02 pm

Thomann brought in 4 Kronos? That is devastatingly low, given their reach to a market of 400 million. To me, that signals real concern for the longevity of Kronos. I realise that's a big conclusion from little evidence - but Thomann ordering 4 Kronos is essnetially ordering none, given how gigantic a cmopany they are.

I've said it time and time again, but this has looked like a US-only release since launch and wonder if that is part of the issue (again - if those Thomann figures are correct).

These things cost a fortune in - only items like motorbikes, cars and houses cost more - and with the already collapsing numbers of keyboards sold, the state much of Europe is in and so no, one wonders if Korg's prejudice towards the US in pricing and promotions is adversely affecting sales? Certainly Korg-USA took over the show from day one.

I agree with the post above about the size and reach of Thomann. They are 'it' when it comes to European sales. I use DV _because_ Thomann are so enormous it's difficult to deal with them for specialist needs (and DV have turned out to be nothing short of fantastic to me).

But I know may people who use Thomann even in Ireland. They are essentially a house hold name across Europe. So for them to be ordering 4 Kronos, for a market of 400 million people, is frankly shocking and I would be very worried already for this product - at least in Europe - if those figures are true.

I mean, I expect my local dealer in Dublin to order more than 4 for a population of a few million people, but an order of 4 - even if just an initial order - by Thomann says there is something devastating going on with keyboard sales.

Kevin.

panrixx · Post by **panrixx** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:06 pm

This is scare mongering. I know of UK dealers who have ordered far more than that and there are a number of them.

dangerousdave · Post by **dangerousdave** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:07 pm

Bear in mind that just because they only got four, it doesn't mean they only ordered four. I've been hearing for a couple of months now that initial supplies would be limited, and that there could be quite a wait for the second batch. At the time, I wondered if it was just a scare tactic to get the pre-orders in quick.

GiantSonicRobot · Post by **GiantSonicRobot** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:09 pm

Laste7 wrote:Ask your local Korg Dealer...I think this is the better way...

+1

In fact, I just got home from a trip to my local music retailer. I almost didn't beleive it: Not only do they have a floor model ready to play, they also had another unit in stock, waiting for a buyer. Needless to say, that buyer was me.

I'm now awaiting delivery within the next hour.

So yes, by all means: Support your local dealer!

Laste7 wrote:Korg said, that the first shippment will be sold by some picked Dealers in Germany....and thomann is not one of them. I can understand this...if you send them just to Thomann they will be sold the same day to all Europe countries.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Part of the problem in Europe seems to be that the internet in conjunction with the EU enables retailers to ship internationally (at least Europe-wide) quite easily. Yet still the various KORG-distributers operate just within certain countries. Obviously that doesn't match.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:12 pm

It might be possible due to the limit amount of total Kroni, that Korg has given priority for US orders (maybe because it's the same company as Korg Japan).

So it might be that Thomann has ordered lots more but only got a few (to at least have some buzz going on). However, as it turns out (of course), a lot of European customers are not happy with this and the way Korg treats us.

I'm not in a hurry with buying a Kronos, next year would be ok too, and I will probably check again at that time what is the best synth at that moment. It might not be a Korg assuming competitors will continue development too. Or I wait for the Kronos 2 or a less priced Kronos 1 at that time. Being a late buyer and paying the full price doesn't seem right anymore.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Panrixx,

I accept where you're coming from - I'm verging on line of 'conspiracy theory crap' which I abhor - but how to explain Thomann ordering in just 4?

And the trust of my post is not to knock Korg or Kronos - I want Kronos to succeed, I'm personally passionate about the survival and development of synthesizers in particular; but there is no getting away from the enormity of Thomann and the concern that is raised if they are bringing 4 Kronos 61's into Europe as thir estimate of a safe number initially. They dominate the European market by a country mile.

So I'd suggest on this instance there is a real issue. I personally believe that Korg USA's hogging of the product from the outset, coupled to tough sales in keyboards in general, are part of it.

But I say again - irrespective of how many small dealers have ordered Kronos in - Thomann is _the_ barometer in Europe - there is no better measure on the state of affairs on this continent - and their order of 4 Kronos 61's is concerning. If those figures are correct, there is a real and troubloing issue here.

Kevin.

GiantSonicRobot · Post by **GiantSonicRobot** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:29 pm

Kevin Nolan wrote:Panrixx,

I accept where you're coming from - I'm verging on line of 'conspiracy theory crap' which I abhor - but how to explain Thomann ordering in just 4?.

Just to clear things up a bit: When they told me about all of their 4 Kronos 61s being already sold out, it certainly didn't sound like they wouldn't have ordered more. Four is simply what they could manage to get.

panrixx · Post by **panrixx** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:31 pm

GiantSonicRobot wrote:
I just called Thomann yesterday, inquiring about a K 61. The answer was: "We are already sold out. All four units we are expecting to get are pre-ordered. Another shipment is scheduled for October 30.....................They will get a total of four KRONOS 61 this summer.

Kevin, I think the important number is how many did they order. They may have been supplied only 4, so far, but how many are on their pre-order list and how many have they asked Korg to supply. Until we know those numbers the other data is of no use.

Kevin Nolan · Post by **Kevin Nolan** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:18 pm

So Thomann, the largest distributor in Europe , could acquire 4 units - until October.

Yes, this all bodes well. All is well in Europe on the keyboard sales front.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

RKfan · Post by **RKfan** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:47 pm

HUH??

$3,000 is £1,850 - if you add 20% on this for local taxes (not counting shipping or import duty since this is something Korg will have to pay where ever they import to) this becomes £2220 - we are asked to pay £2,599 - what is the extra £380 for (certainly not taxes these have already been included)?

All I am saying is that the current Kronos price in Europe is 15-18% more than it should be (the sums don't add up even if you add local taxes). My point is wouldn't it be reasonable to ask your local supplier for that sort of discount in order to get your business, after all there are lots of places you could buy from (obviously not Thomann) - although maybe not yet but it might pay to shop around. Of course if you are desperate to pay over the odds - that is your choice.

Laste7 · Post by **Laste7** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:48 pm

RKfan wrote:HUH??

$3,000 is £1,850 - if you add 20% on this for local taxes (not counting shipping or import duty since this is something Korg will have to pay where ever they import to) this becomes £2220 - we are asked to pay £2,599 - what is the extra £380 for (certainly not taxes these have already been included)?

All I am saying is that the current Kronos price in Europe is 15-18% more than it should be (the sums don't add up even if you add local taxes). My point is wouldn't it be reasonable to ask your local supplier for that sort of discount in order to get your business, after all there are lots of places you could buy from (obviously not Thomann) - although maybe not yet but it might pay to shop around. Of course if you are desperate to pay over the odds - that is your choice.

We have many different costs which are added to the product, when it is imported to the european area. First of all, the local distributor in Europe who imports, (for example Korg Germany, which is not Korg itself, its just the name) is by european law the manufacturer, because he is importing from a country which is not in the eu. This alone makes it very difficult. Korg Germany for example has to take care of some special european restrictions like the WEEE Guidline. This guidline says, that Korg germany has already to pay for the recycling, when they sell it to the dealer. The US don't have this, so they don't have to pay. Korg Germany has to pay 3,2% for import and the difference between pre-tax and VAT, when I am right, the states have a different (cheaper) system. And you have to look for the exchange rate. At the moment it is 1 Euro = 1,43 USD. Make your calculation again with a normal value like 1 Euro = 1,30 USD. And at the end, the dealer also wants to earn some money...

My opinion is, that Korg Japans earns in total more money in the US because they have less additif costs in total. That is !in my opinion! the reason why they prefer the market....thanks to the EU Government.

If I really would earn a lot more money in Europe, why should I sell all my parts to the US first? It is a question of money...Korg is still a company..and not a welfare agency...

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:10 pm

Not all Korgs are equal..

Martin clarified for me on page #1 of this thread that only Korg USA and Korg UK are wholly owned subsidiaries of Korg.

This is a big deal and IMO the root cause of your concerns in Ger/Eur.

What this simple fact means is that Korg makes more sales $ and profit $ as a corporation selling via a wholly owned subsidiary than via distributors.... So.., when demand exceeds supply, Korg will satisfy orders to meet company and business priorities.. ie prioritise orders from Korg JP, Korg USA and Korg UK.

there is NO CONSPIRACY.. simply folks doing their jobs...

Laste7 · Post by **Laste7** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:18 pm

Mystic38 wrote:Not all Korgs are equal..

What this simple fact means is that Korg makes more sales $ and profit $ as a corporation selling via a wholly owned subsidiary than via distributors.... So.., when demand exceeds supply, Korg will satisfy orders to meet company and business priorities.. ie prioritise orders from Korg JP, Korg USA and Korg UK.

there is NO CONSPIRACY.. simply folks doing their jobs...

That's what I wanted to say, but also for Korg UK you have the additiv costs of the EU regulations...

Korg USA and the United States Tax System get money.
in Europe there is Korg UK, the EU and the UK Tax system earning money...this is one mouth more to feet....compared to the US.

Don't understand me wrong, I like the idea of the European Community...

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:52 pm

RKfan wrote:HUH??

$3,000 is £1,850 - if you add 20% on this for local taxes (not counting shipping or import duty since this is something Korg will have to pay where ever they import to) this becomes £2220 - we are asked to pay £2,599 - what is the extra £380 for (certainly not taxes these have already been included)?

All I am saying is that the current Kronos price in Europe is 15-18% more than it should be (the sums don't add up even if you add local taxes). My point is wouldn't it be reasonable to ask your local supplier for that sort of discount in order to get your business, after all there are lots of places you could buy from (obviously not Thomann) - although maybe not yet but it might pay to shop around. Of course if you are desperate to pay over the odds - that is your choice.

I've just compared the prices of the Fantom G8, Motif XF8, and KRONOS 88 at two major retailers: Musician's Friend in the USA, and Digital Village in the UK. All three are more expensive in the UK, based on current exchange rates.

Fantom G8: 33% higher
Motif XF8: 40% higher
KRONOS 88: 35% higher

I don't know all of the factors which cause these differences, but it seems like the increase is relatively uniform, with the KRONOS in the middle of the pack.

In re there only being a few available: this is the case in the USA as well. Supply is constrained. Customers have only been able to buy 61s for a few weeks, and the very first customers are starting to get weighted-key models now.