Effects in combis

[Rocness]

Rocness:

I prefer to keep the effects of program in program mode, because bringing the effects from program to combi/song automatically will overwrite my own tweaks/settings of the effects for that particular combi/song.

No , It doesn't have to . If you want to bring the effects of a program over to a program in a combi your working on with out overwriting your tweaks just select copy "IFXs All used" and all of the insert effects of that program will be put in the next available slots but don't check total effects or master effects because that will replace what you have there already .
Never check
"IFx's-All" unless your ready to start all your effects routing from scratch . Remember also if you check "with Karma" check your midi channels because Karma may change the midi channel of a program inside your combi . That's why sometime you could be working on a combi and copy Karma effects and then your whole combi changes , don't worry it's still there you just have to check that the programs are on the appropriate midi channels inside your combi .

Now this may not be what you mint , I may have misunderstand you and the above may be obvious to you . You could have been saying that you like to pick your own sounds and add effects as you please and tweak them along the way . That's fine to . I think I just work a little differently that's all.

Also, remember that some engines have their own internal effects, that do not take any IFX slots.

Very true , many great sounds have no effects on them at all .

[Rocness]

[
So Rocness I don't understand you. Don't you know this function? Or did I misunderstand you?

-

Yes your right , I do know this but I am being a little misunderstood , so let me try something different . OK

Let's say we are all painters , and Combi mode is our canvas where we are going to paint our picture on .

Ok , now we have our canvas in combi mode , it's all white with noting on it.
(this is imaginary ok )


Now , Let's say the sounds in program mode are the colors of paint that where going to use to paint our picture . Ok

All I want to do , is pick some colors , and paint my picture . That's it .

How would you feel if you went to Sears ( my goodness is sears even around anymore ) and your wife picks out a color of paint to go with
the new furniture but when you get home the paint can say's hey ," to get the color of paint you picked in the store you have to add some effects to me ".

I don't want to have to start mixing colors in combi mode to get the same color that I bought in program mode .

[Shakil]

Rocness:

I prefer to keep the effects of program in program mode, because bringing the effects from program to combi/song automatically will overwrite my own tweaks/settings of the effects for that particular combi/song.

No , It doesn't have to . If you want to bring the effects of a program over to a program in a combi your working on with out overwriting your tweaks just select copy "IFXs All used" and all of the insert effects of that program will be put in the next available slots but don't check total effects or master effects because that will replace what you have there already .
Never check
"IFx's-All" unless your ready to start all your effects routing from scratch . Remember also if you check "with Karma" check your midi channels because Karma may change the midi channel of a program inside your combi . That's why sometime you could be working on a combi and copy Karma effects and then your whole combi changes , don't worry it's still there you just have to check that the programs are on the appropriate midi channels inside your combi .

Now this may not be what you mint , I may have misunderstand you and the above may be obvious to you . You could have been saying that you like to pick your own sounds and add effects as you please and tweak them along the way . That's fine to . I think I just work a little differently that's all.

Also, remember that some engines have their own internal effects, that do not take any IFX slots.

Very true , many great sounds have no effects on them at all .

Rocness: I thought you wanted to keep the effects from Program to Combi/Song automatically. If that happened, you would lose the tweaks in Combi/Song automatically....... I know the procedures you mentioned above, and I prefer telling KRONOS what to do in this case, rather than getting all my mixing screwed up by just selecting a different sound..

[Shakil]

[
So Rocness I don't understand you. Don't you know this function? Or did I misunderstand you?

-

Yes your right , I do know this but I am being a little misunderstood , so let me try something different . OK

Let's say we are all painters , and Combi mode is our canvas where we are going to paint our picture on .

Ok , now we have our canvas in combi mode , it's all white with noting on it.
(this is imaginary ok )


Now , Let's say the sounds in program mode are the colors of paint that where going to use to paint our picture . Ok

All I want to do , is pick some colors , and paint my picture . That's it .

How would you feel if you went to Sears ( my goodness is sears even around anymore ) and your wife picks out a color of paint to go with
the new furniture but when you get home the paint can say's hey ," to get the color of paint you picked in the store you have to add some effects to me ".

I don't want to have to start mixing colors in combi mode to get the same color that I bought in program mode .

Your analogy is a good one, but think about it again. The colors you chose in Sears are not the primary colors, they have to be made by mixing certain quantities of primary colors. That process is done before you get them home and are ready to paint on the walls.

This analogy works if you recorded audio tracks, retaining the sounds exactly in program or combi into the sequencer. The wall/canvas is a not a real time sequencer. Once you paint, it's painted; similar to 'rendering' the audio onto audio tracks. MIDI and Playing live are different processes from painting the walls or a canvas.

In MIDI domain and Live playing.... you are just sending instructions to the sound generators.... There is no canvas capturing the actual sounds. MIDI sequencer just captures the instruction. You can change the sounds later, tweak them, remix them, using the same notes/song. Now, wouldn't that be nice if you could do that with a painting, change the colors without repainting it?!

[Rocness]

Now, wouldn't that be nice if you could do that with a painting, change the colors without repainting it?!

Sweet !

[Dany]

[
So Rocness I don't understand you. Don't you know this function? Or did I misunderstand you?

-

Yes your right , I do know this but I am being a little misunderstood , so let me try something different . OK

Let's say we are all painters , and Combi mode is our canvas where we are going to paint our picture on .

Ok , now we have our canvas in combi mode , it's all white with noting on it.
(this is imaginary ok )


Now , Let's say the sounds in program mode are the colors of paint that where going to use to paint our picture . Ok

All I want to do , is pick some colors , and paint my picture . That's it .

How would you feel if you went to Sears ( my goodness is sears even around anymore ) and your wife picks out a color of paint to go with
the new furniture but when you get home the paint can say's hey ," to get the color of paint you picked in the store you have to add some effects to me ".

I don't want to have to start mixing colors in combi mode to get the same color that I bought in program mode .

Ahh Rocness....now I finally understand what you mean ! You mean Freedom !

See...that's exactly the reason why I use an OASYS-88 and an OpenLabs MiKo-LXD (i7/64bit/8GB) and a Laptop (i7/64bit/8GB) with all Spectrasonics, NI, Arturia, Ivory,etc.,etc. -Plugins, SO THAT I CAN PAINT MUSIC WITH MY SOUNDS, AS I (AND YOU) WISH, WITHOUT GOING CRAZY ABOUT THE ANNOYING KORG USER STRUCTURE (which is, apart from the great SetList feature, about the same on the OASYS as on the KRONOS) .

Therefore I am recording the OASYS directly via S/PDIF and for the use of KARMA, I sync the tempo via MIDI. So the fact is, that if you want to bee fully free to "paint" music with your existing sound colors, using a KRONOS (or OASYS), you will finally use them as a MONOTIMBRAL sound source combined with a DAW.

For me, a Combi is just en expansion of a Program. I treat a Combi like a Program, as a monotimbral sound source (of course with key and velocity splits, etc.).

There unfortunately is still no all-in-one solution, if you want to have real freedom.

But the sound quality and musical expressiveness of the incredible deep synth engines in KRONOS and OASYS are nevertheless still unmatched...but I don't really see them as "workstations" and their sequencer is in my view at best a good sketch-pad...

-

[Rocness]

Ahh Rocness....now I finally understand what you mean ! You mean Freedom !

-

BINGO !

I just want to pick my colors .....................and paint my picture .
That's it .

I don't have time to play around with copying effects for every track and stuff like that , I have another job so time is very valuable so when inspiration hits I just want to pick a sound tweak it some and lay it down and move to the next sound and hit record . See I get what Shakil is saying about not having the effects in combi mode because it can muddy your mix up but to me the effects are what attracted me to the sound in the 1st place so if I am going to tweak it I want to tweak the same sound that's in program mode .

For me, a Combi is just en expansion of a Program. I treat a Combi like a Program, as a monotimbral sound source (of course with key and velocity splits, etc.).

Ok , now you got my attention Can you explain your method here a little bit more very interesting ?

[Dany]

...Ok , now you got my attention Can you explain your method here a little bit more very interesting ?

It's not really interesting and there is no method. What I meant is, that I just simply record a Combi, as I would record a Program, via S/PDIF on my DAW on a stereo track as a WAV, while at the same time, I record the played MIDI notes on another track, so that I can re-record the audio track later on, with different settings of the Program or Combi and their associated effects, if necessary. (So I just use one single MIDI track to control a whole Combi, as I would with a Program.)
Finally, I usually use the SONNOX (Sony Oxford) EQ's, Reverbs and Dynamic Processors (sometimes even NI-GuitarRig) and not the (also outstanding) onboard effects for the OASYS tracks, in order to finish the mix...

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[aron]

I believe that in the future, the keyboards will simply load all of the effects intact and if you want to disable effects then you will have the choice to do so.

[michelkeijzers]

bring programs into combi's with out having to copy effects ,

This is already possible, the only problem is without the effects the program probably sounds different.

stop running out of polyphony in combi mode

This is possible IF there is a processor available that has unlimited (or a lot higher speed). And will be more expensive too. However, it would be nice too have some flexible note stealing algorithms, like giving the programs in the combi mode a priority. Possibly Korg has some low volume automatic note stealing algorithms implemented?

to be able to control the sound in combi mode like in program mode .

Actually this should be possible, however with some implications:
- Currently you have Tone Adjust, possible to ' override' some parameters. Also in the combi tracks some program parameters can be overridden or set equally to the program (e.g. portamento/osc settings).

However instead of these two features, a more flexible way is:
- remove all overridable program settings in combi mode
- remove all tone adjust parameters
- instead, copy all program parameters from all (up to 16) programs in a combo and reference to the original program.
- keep for combi mode the same program parameter screens as in program mode. Except that any value can be 'PRG', i.e. do not change (keep the original parameter setting).
- When copying a program to a combi, let the user chose between copying them with keeping all references or by copying the values itself. In the first case when you change the program, all combis using the programs will change too, in the latter case, each program in a combi is different.

Disadvantage is that more memory is needed.

CPU power is not a problem, no hardware changes needed.

For effects something similar can be created.

[Pips]

I've digging around the manual to help me understand how to copy IFX - I think Ive got. When I use the Kronos in multi mode - running 3 or 4 programs via my sequencer I start but opening up a user combi and add the sounds I want by selecting the sounds from the main screen tab - I don't see the option to copy the IFX - sorry if I'm being thick and thanks for any help . I encounter this problem yesterday - when putting a distorted guitar patch on channel 2.

[Shakil]

I just want to pick my colors .....................and paint my picture .
That's it .

The key here is 'my' colors. How does KORG know what are 'your' colors? Or what are 'your' sounds?

You are mixing up MIDI vs Audio.

You can definately pick up any program with all it's effects, and resample it to an audio track... that will be exactly like painting a picture... as Dany suggested capturing programs and combinations into DAW.. But, you can do that right on KRONOS. Once painted, you can't really change the color or the same strokes.. you can paint over it, mix it with different color.. etc, or erase it.... But you can't change a red stroke to a blue stroke.

Once you have an audio track, just select any other program, in program mode, with all it's effects.. and record audio to a new audio track.... no need to copy effects routing etc.

Recording MIDI is different story.

I actually see the effects being separated from Programs as FREEDOM. In my composition/song I want to tell KRONOS what effects to use and where... I don't want a program's effects be imposed on my composition.... If I really like effects from a preset, I can easily copy.

To copy effects, tap the menu from the top right corner of the screen and select Copy from Program.

[Shakil]

I believe that in the future, the keyboards will simply load all of the effects intact and if you want to disable effects then you will have the choice to do so.

Aron... Fantom-G and Yamaha Motif already do that, but each have their problems, and it's a flawed design. I will explain....

Fantom-G plays a trick that in Program mode you can use only ONE effect, even though 16 are there. So, when in Sequencer, each program brings it's own SINGLE effect with it. If you want you can turn off the effect, change it (you must then create a user patch, there are no memory slots for effects settings in Fantom-G as on KORG workstations).

On Motif, you can have up to 8 programs with their effects. And the effects are automatically carried into song mode.

Now here is the flaw with this automatic copying of effects from program to sequencer/combination......

Let's say you tweaked effects of part 1, part 2, part 3... etc as you need for the current song... Now, let's say you want to pick a different sound, but with the effects as you tweked. As soon as you will call up a different sound, your tweaks will be lost, as the effects from the program will automatically be copied. So, this automatic copying of effects is a flawed design, IMHO.

Now, if the workstation was smart enough to recognize that the effects processor have been modified by the user, so the next sound called up on the same part shouldn't load the effects from Program mode, that would be GREAT!

IMHO, KORG offers a very flexible and quick way of copying effects settings from any program to combination.... no other workstation offers this.... and not many DAW can do this either.