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Synthoid · Post by **Synthoid** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:05 pm

McHale wrote: Adding a cheap part costs a LOT more in the end. I'll see if I can find the post but a $15 part could result in a $100 price increase.

I'd love to read that post because otherwise, that math doesn't make sense.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:41 pm

Synthoid wrote:
McHale wrote: Adding a cheap part costs a LOT more in the end. I'll see if I can find the post but a $15 part could result in a $100 price increase.
I'd love to read that post because otherwise, that math doesn't make sense.

Still digging for it. Found a post by Stephen about software development costs, maybe it was Dan?

BUT

This just occurred to me, if Korg gives the Kronos support for Virtual Memory for user samples, 2GB is enough. Right?

jorgemncardoso · Post by **jorgemncardoso** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm

Hi guys, returning a bit to the keybed question, just to shed some light in to the physical construction cause there were some questions raised about the keybed being screwed to the bottom or to the top frame. I've open and mantained a fair shere of keyboards, mainly Korg and Yamaha, so i hope this helps:

Basicly the construction varies depending on being a weighted or a semi weighted keybed, all weighted ones are always screwed to the bottom as the bottom is made of wood and are a lot more easy to disassemble and service in my opinion.

The semi weighted ones depends on the keyboard, all the korgs i've opend that have the yamaha fs keybed are screwed to the top frame. Yes they are very sturdy and i love it, but a pain to disassemble and service as you have to take at least half the keyboard apart just to get the keybed frame out.

The Motif and Motif ES are built that way too. The Motif XS is screwed to the bottom and you open it by lifting the top frame just like on the weighted keybeds.
Curiously the old DX7 MKI was like this too and it had the fs keybed, so as you see is no design flaw, it's just the way it is built. Of course i'll have to agree that the way the keybed is attached does affect the general feel of the key action

Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:35 pm

I don't think securing it to the base is an issue, as the weight of a weighted action would need to be supported by something. If the base happens to flex or is uneven it could cause issue, but I don't think that is causing issues on the Kronos. I haven't taken apart a Motif but I do know that on other Yamaha stage pianos, the keyboard is usually independently secured to the farme and not with the same screws that thread through and hold the base

EXer · Post by **EXer** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:30 pm

McHale wrote:This just occurred to me, if Korg gives the Kronos support for Virtual Memory for user samples, 2GB is enough. Right?

Wrong (sorry).

As far as playing user samples is concerned, the answer is 'maybe'. That depends on how much RAM will be used up to preload the user samples.

And with no user samples preloaded there would still be only 148 MB available for sampling...

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:50 pm

a common rule of thumb of 4-5 times parts cost for sale price is quite common..

here is a way of looking at it...

manf X adds a $15 line item to the BOM, add the costs of the extra work involved .. documents management, buyer, receiving, extra invoicing, accounts payable, inventory management.. and its not a $15 part anymore...lets say $20

Put that $20 part into the circuit board.. ship to subcontractor, pick and place, testing.. and its not $20.... make it $25

So, by the time it gets into a built, tested and finished machine it has cost the manufacturer almost twice the parts cost.

if the X operates even at 50% gross margin, then its sold at $50.. if GM is 60% then its $75 ... and that is selling price to the distributor..

The distributor may have a 30% sales margin.. putting customer sales price at $70-107

like i said.. 4-5 times parts cost is a decent rule...

McHale wrote:Adding a cheap part costs a LOT more in the end. I'll see if I can find the post but a $15 part could result in a $100 price increase.

EXer · Post by **EXer** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:52 pm

That ratio would not apply to additional RAM since the Kronos is already ready to receive it without further costs other than the price of the memory module...

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:48 pm

4-5 times parts cost is a decent rule...

That's true if and only if the marginal cost of adding a part far exceeds the cost of the part. The marginal cost of adding one more stick of RAM is the cost of the stick plus labor. It probably takes less than 30 seconds to add one more stick. Even if you include the labor cost of those additional 30 seconds per unit, the end result is roughly the same as the cost of RAM.

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:07 pm

feel free to ignore my statement... but i doubt that companies will look at things differently because you do not like the outcome

Ojustaboo · Post by **Ojustaboo** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:40 am

Mystic38 wrote:feel free to ignore my statement... but i doubt that companies will look at things differently because you do not like the outcome

I don't disagree with what you said under normal circumstances.

But here we're not adding a part in the way your example describes.

They already have the source, the same documents, the same buyer, the same person/computer would have drawn up exactly the same invoice only instead of it being say for 5000 units, it would be for 10000. So really there aren't the usual costs involved.

If we were asking for a $15 part to be added that isn't already in there then yes I agree with you totally.

Best

Joe

agoldstraw · Post by **agoldstraw** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:58 am

PinkFloydDudi wrote:You didn't buy a rolls royce buddy!!! You bought the midrange car! There is a reason the Oasys is upwards of $7,000+!!!! THAT is your Rolls Royce. The real german grand piano that costs $100,000...THAT is your Rolls Royce.

Well, first off, the "Rolls Royce" you cite is no longer in production. The K88 is the top of the Korg range right now.

Secondly, I currently own an Nord Piano 88. In the recent past, I have owned a Yamaha CP5 and Korg SV-1. I also regularly play a friend's Motif XF8.

The only one of those whose keybed was not perfectly regulated for spacing and height was, guess what, the Korg. The same RH3 action.

I've been of the opinion for some time that Korg desperately needs to source a new top of the range keybed. The RH3 is an old, sluggish dog that Korg inherited from Technics. It's certainly not the sort of quality I expect to find in a three grand workstation.

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:02 pm

My example was simply to attempt to educate folks into understanding where costs and profits exist within an organisation.. they are there, they are real and the customer pays for them.

Companies can and do allocate these costs in different manners than i quoted, some do at the part level (eg RAM, as %$), some at the box level (eg.Kronos, as %$), some at the business level (eg synthesizer business unit, as %$, or $$) or at the corporate level (eg. Korg, $$) BUT, at the end of the day, the costs of the entire procurement, production and manufacturing chain are effectively spread across each and every item & product...

And i did not even get to profit margin..which is a % of Sales, NOT a % of cost.. Given a business has a target minimum %GM (gross margin) then the loaded cost of the simple $15 RAM gets multiplied to meet the gross margin targets.

Suffice to say that the example you state, that of incremental expense, may sound reasonable in theory from a customer perspective.... but it is a flawed argument anyway and in practice it is almost never accepted within an organisation..

So, it is what it is.. and it does not matter whether you agree, whether I agree, or even whether it is viewed as either fair or reasonable.. it simply is what it is.

Ojustaboo wrote:
Mystic38 wrote:feel free to ignore my statement... but i doubt that companies will look at things differently because you do not like the outcome
I don't disagree with what you said under normal circumstances.

But here we're not adding a part in the way your example describes.

They already have the source, the same documents, the same buyer, the same person/computer would have drawn up exactly the same invoice only instead of it being say for 5000 units, it would be for 10000. So really there aren't the usual costs involved.

If we were asking for a $15 part to be added that isn't already in there then yes I agree with you totally.

Best

Joe

Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:42 am

Well, 4 business days have passed and I haven't heard back from Korg. I sent them 2 emails so I hope I don't have to track down a phone number. The website says they respond with 3 days, but I will wait another day before looking for an alternate means of contacting them.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:02 am

McHale wrote:
Synthoid wrote:
McHale wrote: Adding a cheap part costs a LOT more in the end. I'll see if I can find the post but a $15 part could result in a $100 price increase.
I'd love to read that post because otherwise, that math doesn't make sense.

Still digging for it. Found a post by Stephen about software development costs, maybe it was Dan?

In the past, I've written in various places that markup from parts cost for synthesizers, from any company, is typically in the range of 3.5x to 5x.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:02 am

Bruce Lychee wrote:Well, 4 business days have passed and I haven't heard back from Korg. I sent them 2 emails so I hope I don't have to track down a phone number. The website says they respond with 3 days, but I will wait another day before looking for an alternate means of contacting them.

I'm sorry that you haven't heard back yet. Which email address did you send to?