creating more interesting sounds

Jugo · Post by **Jugo** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:28 pm

I've had the m50 for awhile now
and I've become somewhat frustrated with it at times, because I need a very wide range of sounds, mostly synth sounds, and wheneverI try to recreate them (or create something new myself) It just doesnt sound too good. maybe it's just me, but could anyone give me some tutorials on how to create good sounds? (dont give me the sos tutorials on synthesis, they're too complicated..) or any tips?
I just thought maybe I should get another synth (access virus, or a blofeld.. buit they're a bit expensive) but first I want to squeeze everything out of the m50 until I know what it can and what it can't do.. so, any ideas? ^^

another thing, would it be possible to recreate this sound on the m50?

http://asdfshare.com/o5r0xg8gbr3h/synth1.mp3.html

(it's actually two sounds layered, strings, and the synth sound that is on top of it, I am asking about the synth sound)

thanks!

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:26 pm

Classic Moog style synthesis was based on only a few wave forms - triangle, square, sine. Now we are sometimes dealing with a TMI flood of choices and possibilities. Here are 3 tips that might help you get a handle on it.

Tip 1 - substitution - for any preset "synth" sound you have a large number of nuts'n'bolts parameters already set up; that is 99% of the work. In the oscillator select menu try substituting a new sample or wave form -- some changes may be very subtle, others more dramatic. Bonus - you will over time get a sense of what the various waveforms sound like so you can get (duplicate) a specific sound when you hear it or specifically want it. Smooth, edgy, gritty, piercing, whiny, airy will all call to mind a particular wave form or sample in your mind.

Tip 2 - tweaks - many players never realize the potential of the realtime control knobs. The resonance, filter and cut off are classic tweak knobs... the most grabbed based on years of playing by thousands of synthesists. Even an ordinary synth sound may gain new life with a couple of nudges to the right knob. Oh, and you can save them.

Tip 3 - FX - learn what they do. Piano, for instance sounds very different if the "room" is small vs large or plate vs natural. Consult a guitarist friend, they are usually pretty knowledgable about FX. And don't be afraid to go outboard for better/different/more flexible FX -- the distortion patches on your keyboard are NOT the only ones in the world.

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Be ambitious but be realistic. There are some limits to the architecture. Having a DX sample is not the same as having an FM synth engine; having 3 or 4 moog wave samples is not the same as true analog synthesis. But sometimes close IS good enough. And if your's can't do what theirs does, the same might be true in the other direction. And you'll find that YOUR sound, tho' not THAT sound, is a just as good.

BB

cymeg · Post by **cymeg** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:44 pm

you can`t compare it with the blofeld or the virus.
the blofeld for example hast 3 oscillators which are working with sine, triangle and pulse waves or with wavetables. the m50 only works with this pcm s**t.
i would love to see a firmware update with this options. a real synthesizer needs such basic functions.

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:14 pm

Cymeg,

Obviously, there is no problem at which you can't throw money.

If you (or Jugo) want a Blofeld, by all means get one. I said about FX that going off-board was a possibility, maybe even the best way to get better FX; getting a new synth engine is absolutely, by definition, non-Korg and therefore different than what you've got. And adding a new/slaved synth engine is, yes, a quick way to get new sounds (quicker than waiting for firmware updates, at least). But it is (my opinion) lazy - particularly if you've written off the onboard sounds of your synth based solely on the factory sounds. You may find that you're just as frustrated by the new engine as the old.

My point was, and is, that throwing time at this particular problem can solve two issues.

First, give it your best shot; be methodical, seek info, look for help from others. You'll find out IF you can do it. If not then move on, buy a Blofeld or Axxess or better yet a soft synth suite like Komplete.

But if you find CAN do it; make musically useful sounds, effective tweaks, and apply more dynamic FX, then invest the time and improve YOU.

And, guess what? Either approach will improve your knowledge of synthesis. Not only on the M50 but on any synth.

I have a friend with too much money who imagines himself a guitarist (don't ask why) and keeps throwing money at the problem in hopes that he'll find the guitar so naturally playable that he'll instantly sound like Eric Clapton. He's been doing that for 25 years and still hasn't found "the one". He has a dozen very expensive guitars and everything he plays sounds like "Kum By Ya".

I choose to learn from his experience -- I'll keep my gear and make it work better.

BB

kimu · Post by **kimu** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:51 pm

IMO if you want to learn how to program your own sounds the best is starting from a classic subtractive synth. I suggest also analog. Anyway blofeld and virus are two great virtual analog synth and you can learn a lot using them.

Personally i feel very unease to program from scratch in korg workstation due to patch complexity and not friendly gui whereas i prefer just to tweak a bit the presets.

Some cheap but long-life synth that may help you in having fun programming are Mfb stuff, novation ks series or Nova/supernova, Waldorf q or microq, moog phatties, clavia nord. Choose something with all parameters tweakable with knobs or slider: is easier to understand how your modifications affect sound and it is funnier than diving menus.

cymeg · Post by **cymeg** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:14 pm

@billbaker

i think you misunderstood me:
the only thing i wanted to say is that he can`t compare the blofeld with our m50`s because they are extreme different mashines.
the blofeld for example has a very bad fx section (i owned one a few month ago). every synth has good and a bad site. i think the perfect synth dosn`t exist on this planet.

but i don`t understand why the korg m50 is called a synthesizer when it`s not even able to produce a sine or pulse wave for the oscillators instead of the pcm`s. In my opinion every synth should have this feature. its a basic feature which has to be in every synth. ok, the pcm`s are going the same synthesis way like a sine wave or wavetable in other synths but i think there is something missing in the m50 to call it a synthesizer.
for me mashines like the oberheim ob12 are synthesizers

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:02 pm

Cymeg,

My appologies if I came off harsh. That was not my intention.

M50 is, for lack of a better term, a ROMpler - all it's sampled waves are in ROM. It's this architecture that allows it to play both a realistic piano and analog-ish synth tones. That's what I referred to in talking about the limitations of it's architecture - because at the extremes (high or low) and in the spaces between multi-samples there will always be audible artifacts and aliasing. A transposed sample will always reveal itself.

We look for that big ROM wave library as an indicator of what sounds we might be able to get out. And until Kronos' VA sections that was a pretty good indicator.

Setting that issue aside for a moment... to me at least almost all of the basic manipulations that I want to perform are there. Basic. That's a synth to me. It does synth stuff with what it's given. Give it fresh samples and it can do that synthy manipulation on them as well.

You might make qualitative arguments about filters and modulation routing and stackable oscillators in other machines, but M50 is not billed as a pure synthesizer - it's a workstation.

For a workstation, it's a pretty good synth.

BB

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:51 am

but i don`t understand why the korg m50 is called a synthesizer when it`s not even able to produce a sine or pulse wave for the oscillators instead of the pcm`s.

Where have you been for the last 30 years? The DX7 is not a synth because it can't generate a pulse wave? The Prophet VS is not a synth?

You have a narrow definition of synths. You should buy a true analog synth. Well, even a few true analog synths can't generate a sine wave.

Synthoid · Post by **Synthoid** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:09 am

cymeg wrote:but i don`t understand why the korg m50 is called a synthesizer when it`s not even able to produce a sine or pulse wave for the oscillators instead of the pcm`s.

Sine and pulse waves are available in the M50, along with many others. It doesn't matter how the waves are produced, it's what you or anyone else does with them.

I've heard many electronic compositions played using various workstations that sound just as good as a VA (or even real analog) synth.

Jugo · Post by **Jugo** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:53 am

thanks for all the replies!

First of all, I want to know everything about the M50 and know that I can squeeze out everything from it that I can, only then, when I know its limitations would I buy another synth.
So I wanted to ask for any tutorials maybe? how to make something interesting.. I know how subtractive synthesis works, but when I try to make something all the sounds are very basic, like osc > filter > amp > modulate something with LFOs and envelopes.. I know I'm not using these functions very creatively, that's why I need help

and btw, could someone listen to the sample that I posted in the first post and tell me would it be possible to recreate that sound on the m50? and maybe how?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:02 pm

Maybe it's a good idea to analyze existing programs. Find one that you like or has some specific behavior and try to find out how its made.

akmon · Post by **akmon** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:37 pm

Jugo wrote:thanks for all the replies!

First of all, I want to know everything about the M50 and know that I can squeeze out everything from it that I can, only then, when I know its limitations would I buy another synth.
So I wanted to ask for any tutorials maybe? how to make something interesting.. I know how subtractive synthesis works, but when I try to make something all the sounds are very basic, like osc > filter > amp > modulate something with LFOs and envelopes.. I know I'm not using these functions very creatively, that's why I need help

and btw, could someone listen to the sample that I posted in the first post and tell me would it be possible to recreate that sound on the m50? and maybe how?

There is a VERY GOOD free tutorial made by Astopop, but it´s in spanish. If you want to translate it. It´s all worth it.

http://audio.ya.com/Astropop/documentos.htm

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:36 pm

1 good tip - use the effects. Korg's boards have a fantastic range and quality of effects modules. In many cases they are integral to the sound.

They will also cause problems when moving from program to combi, because it is impossible for the effects to carry over. My advice is to design a new effects chain that is suitable for the overall mix of the combi, or just to cut down on the use of effects.
Either way, a simple osc > filter > amp patch can be brought alive with clever use of distortion, amp simulation, flanger, etc.

well programmed flange can sound like PWM for example.