Jupiter80 vs Kronos

[RonF]

Can you confirm that you can have 10 tones ready to go - muted, but still play 2 - piano+strings/pad and have decent polyphony?

Bottom line....yes you can. The polyphony is not an issue in my experience at all, as I have previously stated in detail (rather than stating it again in such detail).

As to the "patches" you can create.....the JP80 has a lot of flexibility in this regard. You can build tones, live-sets, and registrations. Depending on your individual requirements, you may wish to use one or more of these containers to achieve the sounds you seek. There are thousands of preset tones on board. These cover the gamut. So certainly you can have a piano tone and a string tone loaded into a live set (with all sorts of performance parameters such as splits, layers, modulations, arp settings, and effects routings), and have these muted or un-muted and ready to go. But then, you may wish to layer a few tones into a bigger patch, so you create a live set, and you can have a few of these ready to go. The bottom line is, you have abundant flexibility.......but fundamentally as you describe yourself......Yes, you can load up 10 separate tones, have them muted, and ready to go, and mix and match them at will in real time.

One thing I will say, is that the Kronos has much better effects routing for such a diverse "combi-type" set up. The JP80 effects themselves are outstanding, but the routing is limited while still being very functional, compared to Kronos. If I was you and contemplated using a array of tones in a "combi" as you describe...I would not concern myself (in the JP80) with the architecture for a combination of tones, or with the polyphony....those two areas are fine. I would carefully research the effects routings to be sure its adequate for your needs in this application. Kronos spoils us with the utmost routing flexibility. JP80 has a fixed and limited ability by comparison......but still is very good and adequate for my needs. Just goes to show you how EVERYTHING has its pros and cons.

[aron]

> Yes, you can load up 10 separate tones, have them muted, and ready to go, and mix and match them at will in real time.

Then it IS saving polyphony when it's muted. There's no other way that it could do this.

Aron

[sani]

and mute/unmute them directly with the touch screen. The jp80 is designed to handle it fast and easy for up to 4 parts. Above that, more presses are required.

Not exactly Sani. You CAN mute/un-mute with the touch screen, but you can also use the hardware buttons once you are in this Level. The 4 buttons and sliders re-assign themselves to adjust the relevant parameters onscreen.
(...)
The difference is that your 10 Tones (patches) are separated into 4 separate sections (parts). In my view and experience, this is actually easier than having 8 parts (or more) all at one level and on a large array of sliders and buttons a la Kronos, and causes you to organize your "set" more logically.

I was not sure about whether you can use the buttons and sliders on the jp80 after going one level down.
However, my experience regarding the organization of parts and using them live is a little different then yours.
I prefer to have every part on one single level so that I can immediately react if needed while playing live. That's at least my experience from my Fantom G. There I have 8 parts and 8 sliders and I see all parts at once on the display and I can easily identify which sound is on which part and I can reach directly for the slider without having to go to a deeper level first.
When I do my splits, I always try to set the sounds in an order that follows their placement on the keyboard. Meaning: my pad sound which I play with the left hand will always be the first part and will be controlled with the first slider. My solo sound, played far right on the keyboard will always be the last sound in the chain and controlled with the last slider. So, I always now approximatively which slider controls which sound. On the jp80 it's different because the 4 slider have to control up to 10 parts and you can't follow the same logic as described above. In a live gig where time matters, I could see the organization of the jp80 in that regard as less than ideal.

Sani,

With the Kronos because of the mute still eats polyphony problem - the maximum I can really control is 4.

The mute/unmute function actually does the same as it does on a conventional mixer. It cuts of the signal but it doesn't turn it off. The Kronos behaves in the same way. Whether you can control 4 parts, or more or less depends really on how you play and what kind of sounds you use. If you play a piano layered with different additional voices, the polyphony is heavily used. But if you play a monophonic solo, then I guess you could use far more than 4 parts.
Kurzweil is different here because its function is not exactly a mute/unmute function. You simply turn the parts on or off. My former RD700GX had the same function. That's way this function starts with the next played key/note on the keyboard, while mute/unmute starts immediately after pressing the button. Both functions have their positive and negative sides.

> Yes, you can load up 10 separate tones, have them muted, and ready to go, and mix and match them at will in real time.

Then it IS saving polyphony when it's muted. There's no other way that it could do this.

There is an easy test to see whether it saves polyphony or not: if the muted sound appears immediately after you turn the part on, than it doesn't saves polyphony while unmuted. And vice versa. I'd say the same applies what I said about the function as it is implemented on the Kurzweil. We usually call it mute/unmute while there are two different functions: one is the mute/unmute while the other is a simple on/off.

[cello]

There is an easy test to see whether it saves polyphony or not: if the muted sound appears immediately after you turn the part on, than it doesn't saves polyphony while unmuted.

Just tried your suggestion (I did it in two ways) but I don't know if I've learned anything!

1. Switched all layers off on a 'full' registration. Switched upper layer on. Played a note and held it down. Switched upper layer off. Note still sounded. Switched layer back on, note (which was pressed all the time) still sounded.

2. Switched all layers off again. Pressed and held down a note in the upper region (same as before) - no sound of course. With the note still held down, I swtiched the upper layer on - still no sound.

I'm not sure what the test proves but anyway, that's the result I got.

[sani]

Hi Cello,
well, be prepared to learn something!

From what you described, the JP80 doesn't use the classical mute/unmute, instead it uses on/off. That simply means that those parts which are switched off simply don't use polyphony!
That's actually what Aron wanted to know.

This is the way I prefer to have, but unfortunately, the Fantom G doesn't behave in that way and neither does the Kronos (I guess).

For example, if you play piano, hold the sustain pedal, you hear the notes still sounding. Now you can turn a strings part on, and it will naturally appear with every next note you play.
But on the Fantom G or the Kronos, if you play the piano, hold it with the sustain and than switch the strings part/timbre on (actually you unmute it), you'll hear how the strings abruptly chimes in on all notes that you played with the piano and hold it with the sustain pedal.
The same happens the other way around if you play a piano/strings combination and you turn the strings part off. On the jp80 you'll still hear the strings on the old notes if you hold them with the sustain pedal, but every new note will be just the piano without strings.
This creates very nice and natural transitions when you add or remove sounds while playing.
On the FG or the Kronos, if you turn the strings timbre off (actually you mute it), the strings will abruptly and very unnaturally disappear, because you actually muted it.

Bottom line is as said, on the Jp80 the "muted" parts don't use polyphony while on the Kronos/FG they do.

You could try the same test on your Oasys by creating a simple two timbre combination with just piano and string and try to switch the strings on/off while playing. You should hear the big difference.

[smythrocks]

if you "really" want to play and hear electronic replication of acoustic insturments then go check out many of the voices on the Yamaha Tyros IV. Quite impressive.

Many of the J80 sounds sounded pretty weak IMHO.

Have you played one? The JP80 has the best acoustic sounds I ever heard on an electronic keyboard. Especially, orchestral sounds are phenomenal.

[smythrocks]

Agreed.

+1

This is a tired topic.. To use the term "vs" implies they compete in the same market place and they do not.

Jupiter-80 and Kronos aren't really comparable keyboards, since J-80 is not a workstation at all.

[cello]

Agreed.

+1

This is a tired topic.. To use the term "vs" implies they compete in the same market place and they do not.

Jupiter-80 and Kronos aren't really comparable keyboards, since J-80 is not a workstation at all.

Whilst agreeing that the two machines a universes apart and not comparable - i read the 'vs' differently. I read it to mean, if I have £2,500 to spend which do I get - Kronos or JP-80...

[michelkeijzers]

Agreed.

+1

This is a tired topic.. To use the term "vs" implies they compete in the same market place and they do not.

Whilst agreeing that the two machines a universes apart and not comparable - i read the 'vs' differently. I read it to mean, if I have £2,500 to spend which do I get - Kronos or JP-80...

I think the same ... for me it doesn't matter much if it is a workstation or not, since I'm not really interested in the sampler or sequencer. And still I would select the Kronos over a non workstation if the sounds/flexibility/UI handling is better.

[SanderXpander]

A "vs" debate is useful even if just to outline differences between machines. While some may be aware of all technical features beforehand, this does not go for everyone.

[apex]

but if it's good, it's good... Just for the record however - I don't think the JP-80 is the best thing since sliced bread. I think the OASYS is. The JP-80 is limited - but what it does do, it does immaculately well.

The OASYS is a work of art (and musical genius) - from its soul and from how it was designed by Korg engineers - but the key difference is; it is truly unlimited, and hence will always remain my #1 keyboard.

do you feel that the Kronos is "unlimited" in the same way as the Oasys? or comparable? please explain how so or how not.

[cello]

but if it's good, it's good... Just for the record however - I don't think the JP-80 is the best thing since sliced bread. I think the OASYS is. The JP-80 is limited - but what it does do, it does immaculately well.

The OASYS is a work of art (and musical genius) - from its soul and from how it was designed by Korg engineers - but the key difference is; it is truly unlimited, and hence will always remain my #1 keyboard.

do you feel that the Kronos is "unlimited" in the same way as the Oasys? or comparable? please explain how so or how not.

Simple answer is yes, I view the Kronos is unlimited in the same way I described the OASYS.

There is a more complex answer, but it is still yes. But I'm not going to go over old ground about why I wouldn't buy a Kronos.

The reason for the yes answer is that the Kronos is, in principle, an evolution of the OASYS - so they are essentially the same (from a sound creation point of view). The creativity potential of the O or K is huge due to the vast array of the editable parameters in each engine and how the Korg engineers designed it to be very powerful. Additionally, between the engines you have so many possibilities that frankly, to become expert in all of them would probably take a lifetime!

In front of the OASYS, I feel I have an instrument that can create any sound I can think of - I may not know how to achieve it (yet!) but the O has the capability to get there. Same with the K.

The Jupiter 80 specialises in a particular way and it's very good at it; sublime in fact. But it can't do every sound I can possibly think of (in my view).

Hope that all makes sense!

[carmol]

...

For example, if you play piano, hold the sustain pedal, you hear the notes still sounding. Now you can turn a strings part on, and it will naturally appear with every next note you play.
But on the Fantom G or the Kronos, if you play the piano, hold it with the sustain and than switch the strings part/timbre on (actually you unmute it), you'll hear how the strings abruptly chimes in on all notes that you played with the piano and hold it with the sustain pedal.
The same happens the other way around if you play a piano/strings combination and you turn the strings part off. On the jp80 you'll still hear the strings on the old notes if you hold them with the sustain pedal, but every new note will be just the piano without strings.
This creates very nice and natural transitions when you add or remove sounds while playing.

Actually you can do this on kronos
just changing combi o program in set lists.
i.e. combi 1 piano, combi 2 piano+strings.

[Bruce Lychee]

Simple answer is yes, I view the Kronos is unlimited in the same way I described the OASYS.

I think I understand what you are saying by unlimited, but I do wonder if you really mean that? Of course sampling will allow you to take a snapshot of any sound an literally replicate it, but that is a relatively trivial task. Even if you did multisample, you wouldn't be able to achieve no velocity switching and wouldn't be able to use the sounds in the same way as the Jupiter. Also, when it comes to sound design, as wonderful and deep as the synth engines are, I do think they have a distinct character like any other synth. If I asked you to recreate some of the Jupiter registration items on the OASYS, I think it would be impossible in some cases.... And you certainly wouldn't be able to use them in real time the same way.

The Jupiter is without a doubt more limited than any workstation, let alone the best on the market. Nevertheless, I think it compliments the Kronos very well because the instruments have different limitations and strengths.

[cello]

Simple answer is yes, I view the Kronos is unlimited in the same way I described the OASYS.

I think I understand what you are saying by unlimited, but I do wonder if you really mean that? ...

If I asked you to recreate some of the Jupiter registration items on the OASYS, I think it would be impossible in some cases.... And you certainly wouldn't be able to use them in real time the same way.

...

I think it compliments the Kronos very well because the instruments have different limitations and strengths.

I do mean it - although I'm not techie enough to be able to prove it at a technical level; I'm talking more about given my understanding of using the O, I feel it's unlimited.

I completely agree that because of the structure of the two machines neither could duplicate each other. Not just their physics but also their acoustics.

I guess the O has limitations although I've not hit them yet! I adore both boards - for their differences! And playing them together is greater than either could do by themselves, because of the relative strengths, as you state very well.