I will tell you that considering when it came out and coupled with the Little David leslie simulator it sounded very good in a live mix. I only had it for 2 years though because the keybed action was too slow.I so wanted to like that when it came out... It had just the features I wanted, but the sounds, yecch. I'm glad I waited. Shortly after that, the original Korg CX3 came out, and I bought it instantly. It was exactly what I'd hoped the Crumar would have been.
Funny, though, now the Crumar name is being used to market a clone called the Mojo, and the roles are reversed, now they're ahead of Korg in Hammond emulation!
Improving CX3 sound
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
-
JPROBERTLA
- Senior Member
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:38 pm
- Location: New Orleans
Scott wrote:
JP
_________________________________________
Kronos2-88, Behringer XR18, Turbosound IP2000 (x2), dbx DriveRack 260, KRK Rokit 8s, Mackie CFX16, Mackie SRM450(x2), Mackie SRS1500 (x2), BBE processors (x4), Roland VSR 880 (x2), Alto TS210, Alto TX10 (x3) and SoundForge
_________________________________________
Kronos2-88, Behringer XR18, Turbosound IP2000 (x2), dbx DriveRack 260, KRK Rokit 8s, Mackie CFX16, Mackie SRM450(x2), Mackie SRS1500 (x2), BBE processors (x4), Roland VSR 880 (x2), Alto TS210, Alto TX10 (x3) and SoundForge
I bought a Kronos last week and still is only scratching the surface of this fantastic instrument. Being focused on pianos and organ the first thing I started trying out was the CX-3 Tonewheel Organ.
The presets did not impress much and I also prefer to use the drawbars, percussion and V/C actively during playing so I have tried to adjust the CX-3 parameters to a "raw B-3" sound. During this I have used my Nord C2 and a borrowed Hammond XK3c as a reference (I love my C2!). Through a Ventilator the Nord and Hammond are very close to each other soundwise.
What comes clear during comparing these instruments is that the tonewheel levels are quite consistent between all 3 organs with one big exception:
The CX-3 8' (fundamental) upper C screams with a level at least 6-9 dB higher than the Nord and C2 and also compared to the keys below (B is also higher in level) on the CX-3. I have note measured this accurately, just observed the LEDs on my mixer.
I would be happy if someone could confirm this in case it is just an artifact on my Kronos. It is easy to test:
Pull out the 8' drawbar and play the upper octave from C-C. When reaching the B you will hear a distinct increase in level which is topped by the upper C. The C is screaming compared to the lower keys.
The presets did not impress much and I also prefer to use the drawbars, percussion and V/C actively during playing so I have tried to adjust the CX-3 parameters to a "raw B-3" sound. During this I have used my Nord C2 and a borrowed Hammond XK3c as a reference (I love my C2!). Through a Ventilator the Nord and Hammond are very close to each other soundwise.
What comes clear during comparing these instruments is that the tonewheel levels are quite consistent between all 3 organs with one big exception:
The CX-3 8' (fundamental) upper C screams with a level at least 6-9 dB higher than the Nord and C2 and also compared to the keys below (B is also higher in level) on the CX-3. I have note measured this accurately, just observed the LEDs on my mixer.
I would be happy if someone could confirm this in case it is just an artifact on my Kronos. It is easy to test:
Pull out the 8' drawbar and play the upper octave from C-C. When reaching the B you will hear a distinct increase in level which is topped by the upper C. The C is screaming compared to the lower keys.
Nord C2,
I am also very curious as to what exactly is wrong with the CX3 engine.. I have used the CX3 engine in a BX3 for a couple or years and then I transitioned to a Nord C1 then C2 (most recently using the C2D OS) and now I'm using a Crumar Mojo which I'm pretty sure is about the best Hammond clone out there now (although I'm not trying to stir up a debate, C2D, SK2, Mojo all the current crop of double manual clones are fantastic!!!), But that's my opinion.
I have a couple of gigs this weekend that I'm preparing for, so I'm a little too busy over the next couple of days to do a side by side comparison, but I will try to do so early next week and if I do I'll have a close look at the 8' drawbar in the upper octaves.
One of the things I've noticed about the CX3 engine in the Kronos is that I can get the upper octaves sounding GREAT, and I can get the mid octaves sounding GREAT, and I can get the lower octaves sounding GREAT, HOWEVER, I cannot get all sounding great at the same time.. when I use the eq to fix the top octaves the bottom octaves sound weird and vice versa.. Same thing with the Percussion, when I get the percussion sounding great, the tone is off, and when I have the tone sounding great the percussion isn't right..
So from my perspective, as a seasoned Hammond and Clone player, who has owned and used pretty much every clone around, I think the main problem with the CX3 engine is keyboard "scaling" in other words the level of the various tones across the keyboard. I really don't think it would take too much for the CX3 to be a truly killler clone, and here's what I would suggest:
1. A keyboard scaling parameter (fix the scaling issues and add scaling options)
2. The ability to EQ the CX3 percussion separate from the tonewheels
3. Updated leslie sim
4. The programmers who came up with the CX3 programs must be fired
So, if I get a chance next week I will have a look at the tones across the keyboard by comparing the CX3 engine to my new Crumar Mojo side by side and I'll see if I notice the same issue you do, or if I can shed any further light on what exactly the difference is between the CX3 engine and the best clone in town.
Thanks for your post, look forward to connecting further on this!
Craig
I am also very curious as to what exactly is wrong with the CX3 engine.. I have used the CX3 engine in a BX3 for a couple or years and then I transitioned to a Nord C1 then C2 (most recently using the C2D OS) and now I'm using a Crumar Mojo which I'm pretty sure is about the best Hammond clone out there now (although I'm not trying to stir up a debate, C2D, SK2, Mojo all the current crop of double manual clones are fantastic!!!), But that's my opinion.
I have a couple of gigs this weekend that I'm preparing for, so I'm a little too busy over the next couple of days to do a side by side comparison, but I will try to do so early next week and if I do I'll have a close look at the 8' drawbar in the upper octaves.
One of the things I've noticed about the CX3 engine in the Kronos is that I can get the upper octaves sounding GREAT, and I can get the mid octaves sounding GREAT, and I can get the lower octaves sounding GREAT, HOWEVER, I cannot get all sounding great at the same time.. when I use the eq to fix the top octaves the bottom octaves sound weird and vice versa.. Same thing with the Percussion, when I get the percussion sounding great, the tone is off, and when I have the tone sounding great the percussion isn't right..
So from my perspective, as a seasoned Hammond and Clone player, who has owned and used pretty much every clone around, I think the main problem with the CX3 engine is keyboard "scaling" in other words the level of the various tones across the keyboard. I really don't think it would take too much for the CX3 to be a truly killler clone, and here's what I would suggest:
1. A keyboard scaling parameter (fix the scaling issues and add scaling options)
2. The ability to EQ the CX3 percussion separate from the tonewheels
3. Updated leslie sim
4. The programmers who came up with the CX3 programs must be fired
So, if I get a chance next week I will have a look at the tones across the keyboard by comparing the CX3 engine to my new Crumar Mojo side by side and I'll see if I notice the same issue you do, or if I can shed any further light on what exactly the difference is between the CX3 engine and the best clone in town.
Thanks for your post, look forward to connecting further on this!
Craig
Craig MacDonald
I have used the Kronos (CX-3) and Vent on a couple of studio sessions lately and the improvement over the internal Kronos Leslie sim/OD is very noticeable. However, it still doesn't sound like a Hammond to me (too shrill and lacking in warmth). I continue to tweak it here and there, but I'm finding I like the tone of my VK-8M through the Vent better. Plus the VK-8M has a pretty decent control surface...almost everything is at your fingertips and can be tweaked in real-time.
Korg Kronos 61 (2); Kurzweil PC4; Casio Privia PX-350m; Macbook Pro
If I was performing and using the CX3 organ in my Kronos (rather than my C2 or Mojo) I would definately use the Ventilator, and that would cure two issues, quality of the leslie sim AND the overall warmth (or lack of) in the CX3 engine.
Perhaps I should have included this as a discreet item on my list but I was assuming that, like the Ventilator, a better leslie sim would improve the warmth.
However, definately good point Bill. Personally I've never been a fan of the Roland VK organ.. not sure why exactly, a lot of people are, however I think the general consensus is that Roland has fallen far behind the current crop of clones like the Mojo, SK2, C2D... that said I have friends who love their VK's and don't think the newer clones are better (enough) to warrant upgrading.
Everyone hears things a bit differently and has a different idea of what the ideal Hammond sound is. Craig
Perhaps I should have included this as a discreet item on my list but I was assuming that, like the Ventilator, a better leslie sim would improve the warmth.
However, definately good point Bill. Personally I've never been a fan of the Roland VK organ.. not sure why exactly, a lot of people are, however I think the general consensus is that Roland has fallen far behind the current crop of clones like the Mojo, SK2, C2D... that said I have friends who love their VK's and don't think the newer clones are better (enough) to warrant upgrading.
Everyone hears things a bit differently and has a different idea of what the ideal Hammond sound is. Craig
Craig MacDonald
-
jeremykeys
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:06 pm
- Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
ccmacdon makes a good point in that no 2 hammonds sound the same. Another thing is, "what is the perfect hammond sound?". I think we can all agree that we know what we like and we know what we don't like.
I have to admit that I myself am quite happy with the Kronos hammond and leslie sim sounds. Mind you I tend to "work" the drawbars a fair bit and I'm changing the leslie speeds a fair bit too.
For myself I think that the whole performance is just as important as the sound in order to do a good organ fake.
I have to admit that I myself am quite happy with the Kronos hammond and leslie sim sounds. Mind you I tend to "work" the drawbars a fair bit and I'm changing the leslie speeds a fair bit too.
For myself I think that the whole performance is just as important as the sound in order to do a good organ fake.
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
Gear: Kronos 73, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, my very old MiniKorg, 4 acoustic and 9 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a Steel guitar, a bunch of microphones, 2 pairs of studio monitors and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 4 cats and a lava lamp!
jeremykeys I agree completely on the fact that is hard to find two hammonds sounding identical and that the player often makes the big difference. But like Craig I struggle to program the Kronos to a real inspiring sounding clone. I am quite sure that Hammond B3s rolling out of the production line were calibrated and sounding more or less identical.
Like Craig I think the leveling is the clue and eq does not solve it. Maybe it is a specific issue with my Kronos but the high C on the fundamental drawbar just sounds plain wrong to me. That made me compare with the other clones.
Jon
Like Craig I think the leveling is the clue and eq does not solve it. Maybe it is a specific issue with my Kronos but the high C on the fundamental drawbar just sounds plain wrong to me. That made me compare with the other clones.
Jon
Have you checked that you're using the 'mellow' drawbar curve? This is supposed to be more like a Hammond than a CX3.
Keep in mind that Korg seems mainly concerned with the 'classic CX3 sound' which they believe is a sought-after sound in its own right.
Keep in mind that Korg seems mainly concerned with the 'classic CX3 sound' which they believe is a sought-after sound in its own right.
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
X-trade,X-Trade wrote:Have you checked that you're using the 'mellow' drawbar curve? This is supposed to be more like a Hammond than a CX3.
Keep in mind that Korg seems mainly concerned with the 'classic CX3 sound' which they believe is a sought-after sound in its own right.
I would expect that the original poster has selected the mellow drawbar set, but I'm not sure if that's clearly stated, so good for pointing that out..
I think you also have a valid point that perhaps Korg is more interested in creating the CX3 sound rather than the classic B3 sound.. Every one of the CX3 patches sounds like someones idea of what a Hammond B3 sounds like, and NONE of them actually sound like a real B3. Many of the CX3 programs are exactly that.. CX3 programs NOT emulations of a real B3 sound. (not sure if I'm explaining my point clearly). Even in their sample based workstations, they always have a classic CX3 organ sound..
That said, I still think that the solution is in the keyboard scaling area.. how the various tones are scaled across the keyboard.. if we had the ability to tailor that, we might be able to come up with much more realistic B3 sounds!!
Craig MacDonald
Yes I have checked both the bright and mellow drawbar curves as well as the vintage and clean wheel type. I do not know anything about the porting of the model from the physical CX3 to the model used in the Kronos. If Korg justed ported the more than 10 years old model without any redesign there should be room for improvement. The other clones have moved many steps forward in these years.
If the CX3 sound now is a "sought-after sound in its own right" I still think most of the users are looking for the best sounding B3 replica....
Korg originally stated in the CX3 EasyStart Guide that they saw it as a "Tone Wheel Organ modeling system that perfectly reproduces a tone wheel organ's sound-producing mechanism". ccmacdon has made a few posts here which points out much of the same as I feel is lacking in the Kronos CX3 engine.
By the way, has anybody pulled out their 8' drawbar and checked the level of the top C?
If the CX3 sound now is a "sought-after sound in its own right" I still think most of the users are looking for the best sounding B3 replica....
Korg originally stated in the CX3 EasyStart Guide that they saw it as a "Tone Wheel Organ modeling system that perfectly reproduces a tone wheel organ's sound-producing mechanism". ccmacdon has made a few posts here which points out much of the same as I feel is lacking in the Kronos CX3 engine.
By the way, has anybody pulled out their 8' drawbar and checked the level of the top C?
...and if there is a CX3 "sought-after sound in its own right" - it will certainly NOT be the second generation, but the first (1979/80) - which was quite different from a B3, but also had "balls".NordC2 wrote: If the CX3 sound now is a "sought-after sound in its own right" I still think most of the users are looking for the best sounding B3 replica....