Voice stealing

RobTky · Post by **RobTky** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:33 am

Hi,

I was wondering what does exactly "voice stealing" means, and maybe more importantly how can that impact the sound. Can anyone explain or point me to a resource?

I can see on perf meter a lot of voice stealing is happening e.g. when I play even simplest thing in combi int-a044. And when I play I hear a lot of sizzling or cracking sounds, especially with more notes.
My understanding was that voice stealing was about removing old sounds when there was too many of them and processing power was needed for new sounds coming in. I would not expect that would be heard as I described.

Thank you in advance,
Robert

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:29 pm

I also don't know about the crackling sounds.

But voice stealing is what you say in general: the oldest voice stops being played when the number of voices are allocated.

However, it's not that simple as that. Voices are split between HD1 and EXis, some voices are fixed, some are more flexible; also the effects in place might affect it.

Also, the volume depends what voices to stop; i.e. soft voices can be stopped sooner than others because they probably are inaudible (almost) after releasing. And maybe monophone/polophony is taken into account, height/frequency of the voices, do I need to continue?

1jordyzzz · Post by **1jordyzzz** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:38 pm

basically, voice stealing is a feature that "steals" the old sound to make the new sounds able to sound... voice stealing only applies when the polyphony / the processor is overloaded, and cannot sound more notes than it is already..

however voice stealing is not just about stopping the oldest note playing.. there's also a complex algorithm beneath the process... if it's as simple as stopping the old notes, imagine if you have a 16 polyphony keyboard, and you want to play a piano sound... say an arpeggiated C chord.. you press the bass (C) first on the lowest C, then you arpeggiate the C chord on the higher register.. will it sound great if the first note to cut is the lowest C (the bass)?? of course it's not.. so many manufacturer tries to create an algorithm for the voice stealing, to make it steals note as if no sounds has been stolen / stopped..

JPROBERTLA · Post by **JPROBERTLA** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:20 pm

Voice stealing is the result polophony limitations. I sequence a lot and have problems with this even if I use dedicated EX engines. You can assign track priorities so the voice stealing can be steered away from the most important tracks (in theory); but realistically this seems to make the situation worse.

I like the Kronos a lot, but for me this has been a problem. It seems like anything over 60 voices (notes) triggers the voice stealing algorithm.

RobTky · Post by **RobTky** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:21 pm

Thank you all for the answers. That confirms my understanding.

My concern started from the crackling sound in combi a044, so I played it again paying more attention and realised it appears only on attack, and even before voice stealing kicks in. Maybe it's more noticeable when you hit few loud chords.
It sounds a little like when the amp is overloaded and starts cutting the peaks. But it's not the problem in my case, I use headphones and they have no problem with loud sound in other combis.

Can anyone try combi a044 and confirm they have the same effect? Many thanks.

Robert

alland · Post by **alland** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:47 pm

RobTky wrote:Thank you all for the answers. That confirms my understanding.

My concern started from the crackling sound in combi a044, so I played it again paying more attention and realised it appears only on attack, and even before voice stealing kicks in. Maybe it's more noticeable when you hit few loud chords.
It sounds a little like when the amp is overloaded and starts cutting the peaks. But it's not the problem in my case, I use headphones and they have no problem with loud sound in other combis.

Can anyone try combi a044 and confirm they have the same effect? Many thanks.

Well, I cannot believe, my new Kronos X does this to me!!!

I can get this cracking and sizzling with almost all combis when play short staccato chords with 3-5 notes continuosly.
I just auditioned my new KronosX and stumbled to that cracking on INTA-A 009. Then I searched this forum, found this thread and tried other combis in IntA. It seems, that attack causes more frequently voice stealing, when I add voices slowly, it rarely happens. But when just playing quick accords even with just 3 notes then stealing starts and cracking voice - too bad.

EDIT: Oh, I read from OS release notes for v 2.0.2 that
"In rare cases, noise might occur at the audio outputs. This has now been fixed."
And my version is 2.0.1 from shop. I will try upgrade and see whether issue goes away ... however, the case was not "rare" for me, it took 15 min playing with unpacked instrument to stumble on it. Post again after update.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:31 pm

JPROBERTLA wrote:Voice stealing is the result polophony limitations. I sequence a lot and have problems with this even if I use dedicated EX engines. You can assign track priorities so the voice stealing can be steered away from the most important tracks (in theory); but realistically this seems to make the situation worse.

I like the Kronos a lot, but for me this has been a problem. It seems like anything over 60 voices (notes) triggers the voice stealing algorithm.

Voices are not the same as notes! One note may play many voices, especially in Combis, HD-1 Programs, or any Program that uses Unison or Chords.

The maximum number of voices also varies depending on the engine in use. The system can play up to 180 voices of the PolysixEX, for instance, while it can play only up to 40 voices of the MS-20EX. To put it another way, each voice f the PolysixEX uses roughly 1/180th of the system's synthesis power, while each voice of the MS-20EX uses roughly 1/40th. That's simplified, but should convey the general idea.

For a more complete understanding, this section of the Parameter Guide should be helpful:

Program P0: Play -> 0–2: Performance Meters

Hope this helps,

Dan

alland · Post by **alland** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:33 pm

os v 2.0.2 solved that crackling issue

1jordyzzz · Post by **1jordyzzz** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:45 pm

alland wrote:os v 2.0.2 solved that crackling issue

nice to hear that

Luk84PL · Post by **Luk84PL** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:36 pm

Hi there! Is this normal that voice stealing often occur when I play some internal combis like A023 Golden Sword Orch where it causes cutting off the sounds and and the rhythm? I usually press 5-6 keys while changing chords and the voice stealing value is around 50 and after a second it drops down to something about 6-10 (so it's always "on" when I play that combi)...

alland · Post by **alland** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:49 pm

Luk84PL wrote:Hi there! Is this normal that voice stealing often occur when I play some internal combis like A023 Golden Sword Orch where it causes cutting off the sounds and and the rhythm? I usually press 5-6 keys while changing chords and the voice stealing value is around 50 and after a second it drops down to something about 6-10 (so it's always "on" when I play that combi)...

In my KronosX this combi shows some voice stealing when playing 5-6 keys chords (Karma on) but not noticeable voice cut or other audible issues when I have OS 2.0.2.