Musikmesse

[Timo]

I'm after drooling on my keyboard here look at those pictures.

Looking at those pictures takes me one step closer to ordering a Prophet 12.

For your drooling pleasure:



She's a beauty!

Sounds rather great too.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/buVeoLnL3tc?rel=0" frameborder="0"></iframe>

2:50+ phat as phuque.

[SoulBe]

Well let´s see if there will be anything new; I´m on 11 th at the Musikmesse and will post some pics if there is anything interesting

best regards
SoulBe

[cjj]

Oh yeah! I'd love to get one of those! Thanks for posting the pic & vid!

[Kevin Nolan]

Messe is a much bigger event than NAMM, so you never know.

I'm quite surprised Yamaha didn't release anything at NAMM, so I'd put money on Messe for a Yamaha release. They really really need to do something.

Regards
Sharp.

It's not going to happen Sharp - lower your expectation. Having read their last year's report, they seem to be even in denial as to any past connectivity with synthesizers and workstations, and seem to have essentially no awareness of this market. I reads as if Yamaha has become a faceless corporation which makes decisions based on mass markets, using middle of the road 'talent' like Elton John (and a plethora of others) to promote their products.

I can see absolutely no sign of there being any awareness of our market - and Motif is designed and built from the stand point of a set of generic, vanilla 'requirements' to fill what is a mildly successful live performance market.


They are VERY far away from synthesizers and workstations as Korg know it, and the very best you can hope for is a Motif upgrade.


I don't believe the points I'm making here are ad hoc; and their recent 'synth' releases have been so completely characterless that they surely point to this current, barren, void within Yamaha in this regard.

Kevin.

[michelkeijzers]

Messe is a much bigger event than NAMM, so you never know.

I'm quite surprised Yamaha didn't release anything at NAMM, so I'd put money on Messe for a Yamaha release. They really really need to do something.

Regards
Sharp.

It's not going to happen Sharp - lower your expectation. Having read their last year's report, they seem to be even in denial as to any past connectivity with synthesizers and workstations, and seem to have essentially no awareness of this market. I reads as if Yamaha has become a faceless corporation which makes decisions based on mass markets, using middle of the road 'talent' like Elton John (and a plethora of others) to promote their products.

I can see absolutely no sign of there being any awareness of our market - and Motif is designed and built from the stand point of a set of generic, vanilla 'requirements' to fill what is a mildly successful live performance market.


They are VERY far away from synthesizers and workstations as Korg know it, and the very best you can hope for is a Motif upgrade.


I don't believe the points I'm making here are ad hoc; and their recent 'synth' releases have been so completely characterless that they surely point to this current, barren, void within Yamaha in this regard.

Kevin.

I think Yamaha was in the past quite successfull, however it has degraded over time. During the Yamaha DX (7) age I think Yamaha was one of the top players (next to Korg). During the SY synth series they did quite a good job. The Motif is not bad and maybe good in the beginning, but it seems to have no successor for over many years so it gets outdated more and more while Korg is still producing new synths and workstations.

[Sharp]

What makes me laugh is they are getting away with what they are at.

If you take KORG vs Yamaha for a second. Be it a KORG Workstation or Arranger, KORG give more in free OS updates than Yamaha give in a new Keyboard.

Take the KRONOS for example. OS 2.0 was free and a massive boost in function to the KRONOS. Cost to me and you... $0.00

Yamaha on the other hand would put a lot less development into a completely new product and people will still buy it.

It's crazy.

Now days some people don't even care because they will only ever learn how to use 50% of what they have. It's more about having the latest model I think.

Regards
Sharp.

[michelkeijzers]

Now days some people don't even care because they will only ever learn how to use 50% of what they have. It's more about having the latest model I think.

I think 50% is even on the high side. I have to admit I only understand about 20% of my Kronos yet.

[Synthoid]

Now days some people don't even care because they will only ever learn how to use 50% of what they have. It's more about having the latest model I think.

I think 50% is even on the high side.

Exactly. Maybe 25% is more realistic.

One major bone to pick with Yamaha is, you can't overwrite the factory voices (programs) on the Motif XS/XF. You can only edit them and save in the limited user banks. Every one of my other synths and workstations allow overwriting of all factory sounds.

[Kevin Nolan]

Agree with you wholeheartedly Sharp.

@Timo - I have a VL1. It is fabulous. The VL1 and VL1m still command high 2nd hand prices because there isn't a better Virtual Acoustic instrument on the market.

@Synthoid - Regarding not being able to write over presets - well - surely that's an issue with most if not all hardware synth manufacturers. Yes you can write over the OASYS and Kronos factory programs, but then you destroy the preset combi's so most don't do it. And - Roland are just as stingy as Yamaha in that regard.

Part of the problem stems, in my opinion, from the fact that it appears that designers in Korg, Yamaha, Roland and the like have little or limited experience in managing earnest music projects (in particular - multiple, fast moving real world projects) where storing dozens if not hundreds of patches and their variations is the norm. If they had such experience they'd realise the poor state of affairs with their hardware instruments regarding storage. They need a major shift of perception in this regard but it's not sinking in.

I feel Korg have been particularly poor here and have definitely missed a trick with the Kronos in particular given its vast number of synth engines and libraries; where they should have implemented a more sophisticated program and combi storage capability given the onboard SSD. Admittedly there is the Disk Storage mechanism and that is an improvement over other manufacturers, but it's only a cludge.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Korg have lost out on sales because of the outmoded way of saving and managing programs, given 9 synthesizer engines and a large array of libraries. I have a lot of composer friends who are a lot busier than I am with media jobs and they simply will not touch hardware like the Kronos or the Integra-7 - FOR THE SOLE REASON - of such inferior management capabilities when compared to even shareware plugin synths which offer essentially limitless storage of programs in easily creatable folders. In a nutshell , project management is central to optimizing precious time and managing complex jobs properly, and for hardware synths that means a fundamentally different approach to program, combi and setup management. I've flagged this many times before on this forum, as have many others, but Korg are not listening.

If hardware synths are to have a viable future then hardware manufacturers need to get into the 21st century in such regards. There needs to be ever increased capabilities in management of programs and setups - all of this should be utterly seamless and the first hardware company to realise this will entice entirely new markets.




Kevin.

[axxim]

Personally, I think that regarding the synth technology, we are reaching the point where there is no much innovation left.
The different technologies (from the first electric sound generators like the telharmonium until todays technology) with the main steps: electro-mechanic, electronic (analog) and digital(sampling and virtual modelling of anything) have exhausted any kind of synthesis and filled the 8 octaves of the audible frequency spectrum.

Even new technology terms like MMT, Super Natural or whatever they are called, they are only enhancements in sound quality but nothing what is truly different from their ancestors.

So the only improvements are performance, sound quality, playability (interaction with the musician), adding features and effects, increase of polyphony, etc.

Even if a Kronos offers 9 "synth engines", it is not better as a computer with innumerable VSTi's (I rarely use them). It is just an aglomeration of features but nothing really new.

I think that K, R, Y and all other synth manufacturers have the same problem with the innovation possibilities.

While Y may leave this market to set its efforts in other instrument categories, R repacks and enhances its technology (as well as Korg) trying to get more customers due product diversification (or size reduction) rather than innovation which as I said before is reaching some grade of stagnation.

Its like with cars, they may have different engine types, better extras, nicer designs, more comfortability but they still have (and need) wheels.

I hope that I am wrong but I think it will very rare that someday a new Instrument in this category will make me say "WOW" again.

[Comrad_Durandal]

Messe is a much bigger event than NAMM, so you never know.

I'm quite surprised Yamaha didn't release anything at NAMM, so I'd put money on Messe for a Yamaha release. They really really need to do something.

Regards
Sharp.

Actually, if I remember right - they released the MX series at this last NAMM, that was their big announcement. It replaces the MOX and MM but it does use the sounds from the Motif XS (which I understand the XF is just more of the same with more room and tweeks).

I am pondering picking up a MX49 just for the portability factor, as well as Yamaha's Motif sound library.

[Kevin Nolan]

@axxim: I'm not clear on your point. Surely you're not saying that humanity has reached the end of the road in innovation regarding instruments ?? If so, you're imagining that synthesizers in say, 100 years, will be essentially the same as now??

Innovation in synthesizers has barely begun. We are at the starting line. I could qualify that statement with a book or more (if I had the time). The problem is lack of imagination in designers today - and if you are claiming what you seem to be claiming - a lack of imagination by you on this too.

I can envisage so many designs that are better than anything put out today with ridiculous ease - everything from harnessing the best of true vintage classics in new and innovative ways to completely different instrument implementations (many not commercially viable of course) - and know I'm an average 'Joe Soap' - that I have huge confidence that staggering, jaw dropping innovations in synthesis will eventually be realised again.

It may not be any time soon and it may take new innovations in computers, software, materials and even cultural demand and economic viability - but you can rest assured - anyone who thinks synthesis is 'done' is living in a state of utter lack of imagination regarding the medium and long term future.

Yamaha are there now. They are proliferated by a synth division of such devastating lack of imagination that surely Yamaha in the future will look back at Yamaha now as an utter embarrassment. I believe Yamaha in particular will come round to a new golden era of synthesizer design in the distant future because i) they are the largest musical instrument design company on the planet and 2) synthesizers is where a significant fraction of innovation occurs and they will need to .

As for Roland - you are unfair and incorrect in saying that Roland rehash their instruments - Roland have arguably been THE most innovative synthesizer company of late (and though their entire history) and continue to be so though the plethora of Virtual technologies from COSM to Vocal Design. That label of reusing sample libraries in synths is old and out of date - sure they did that in their classic 'module' days but their multiple generations of new technologies since then renders that point void.

Kevin.

[Ojustaboo]

A life long friend of mine is a games programmer (wrote populous), what he says about the computer game industry is I suspect very similar to what's happening amongst most the mainstream synth manufacturers.

He says there is no end to the talented people available, no end of people with new, groundbreaking fun game ideas, but the big players simply aren't interested.

They want to churn out more and more of the same tried and tested formulas, want quick returns, and do not want to invest in any new ideas.

So the talent and the ideas/imagination is there, the companies willing to try something new isn't.

I imagine its very similar for the likes of Yamaha etc.

[xmlguy]

To everyone who thinks that Yamaha hasn't been innovating with the Motif line, I think you've overlooked some important things: XA, VCM, Flash and Karma3. Kronos doesn't have them. They're not on the Motif classic. They were added on the XS and the XF. You can argue their value to you, but you can't legitimately say that Yamaha hasn't been innovating when, in fact, they have. You can also argue that Kronos SSD is superior to Motif Flash, but that doesn't mean that Flash isn't an advance over previous models and vs. other workstations without it. Karma3 is really more of a Karma Labs innovation, of course, but it's available for Motif and not for Kronos, and I think I can entirely blame Korg for that. This is not to say that I think that the Motif XF is better, in general, than the Kronos, but I think it's unfair to claim or to imply that Yamaha hasn't been innovating, when in fact, they have. The XF is a much more advanced workstation than the Motif Classic, but perhaps not in ways you've recognized. They've certainly gone in a different direction than Korg. I don't like how they've completely abandoned all other forms of synthesis besides sample modeling, so please don't take my comment as being my general endorsement of the Yamaha direction with the Motif line.

So where is the Korg articulation technology? Not on the Kronos. It's on the PA arranger line, only (and a bit on the SVs). Yamaha has articulation control on their arrangers and workstations. Korg doesn't.

[djcactus]

A life long friend of mine is a games programmer (wrote populous), what he says about the computer game industry is I suspect very similar to what's happening amongst most the mainstream synth manufacturers.

He says there is no end to the talented people available, no end of people with new, groundbreaking fun game ideas, but the big players simply aren't interested.

They want to churn out more and more of the same tried and tested formulas, want quick returns, and do not want to invest in any new ideas.

So the talent and the ideas/imagination is there, the companies willing to try something new isn't.

I imagine its very similar for the likes of Yamaha etc.

Not to get the thread totally side-tracked but the gaming industry is lacking fresh new titles because consumers aren't buying them. If you look at the games who names end without some form of number or text of familiarity, these titles dont sell nearly as well as games people know what to expect...