No Son of Mine: Collins (Video Sample)

[jorgemncardoso]

Mate, thankyou so bloddy much for this mainly for the "Elephant Sample", that's the nickname for the guitar sample bit in Genesis world
I made my version of the Elephant Sample from an mp3 of the original guitar riff sampled by Tony Banks on the Emulator back on the We Can't Dance recording sessions available on the Karma Lab forum:

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showpost ... stcount=15

It's the original time sample first ant then the slowed version that was the basis for the final elephant sample Tony used on No Son of Mine.
I've always feel like just slowing it down didn't do the trick fully, it always seemed a bit off tempo, so my guess is Tony tweeked it a bit more for the final version.
Your version is sopt on!! How did you get it, or what did you do to get it perfect, if you don't mind my asking?

Thanks!

I got the sample from the same place you did, but I had to time stretch the sample without changing the pitch a bit. I mean, I changed the pitch FIRST, which also increased how long the sample played for. Then I time-stretched the sample shorter to make it play back faster (I synced it to the album sample) and then I cut off the sample ending since the original sample plays longer than the album.

So it was a quick 3 step process. Once done, bring it into the Kronos and assign it to a specific key. Bam. Magic.

Thanks for explaining this, man when i tried to make it i was a total dud in sampling and processing sound files, i used sound forge to edit it, and it took hours of cut and paste to get close, it kind of worked but i got a lot of clicks and pops from the cutting on the final sample.
Yours is perfect!!! Thankyou so much fot it mate!

[enigmahack]

Thanks for explaining this, man when i tried to make it i was a total dud in sampling and processing sound files, i used sound forge to edit it, and it took hours of cut and paste to get close, it kind of worked but i got a lot of clicks and pops from the cutting on the final sample.
Yours is perfect!!! Thankyou so much fot it mate!

That's no problem at all. I'm glad to be of help

[jorgemncardoso]

BTW, the main synth pad for the song in the Wavestation's "Ooo's" patch, Ram 3 number 45. If you have the Wavestation legacy vst you can check it out.
It's just a plain syn vocal "ooo's" pad. That should be easy to replicate on the Kronos as it has all of the Wavestation's samples
As the song progresses to the chorus Tony adds a warm analog string pad from the JD800 to thicken the sound.
The sound for the "solo" in the middle of the chorus is a JD800 patch, typical Roland "Fantasia" 'like type of patch. I have one that is spot on in my JV1010

[jorgemncardoso]

I've been carefully listening to the sample again and comparing to the recording, and i find it's very close but not really spot on the original. I remembered the difficulties i had when i tried to edit mine:

When you make the pitch shift (9 semitones down) of the original sample recorded by Tony you get the basic sound but a simple time shifting of the entire sample won't be enough because the final one was stretched on one side and shrieked on another to fit the length of the 4 bars and the independent notes per bar.
So i had to do a little time stretch to the whole sample first, and time shrink the end tail of the sample. I think it is as spot on the original as possible
I'm posting it here in case you want to use it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bk798tj33h0q4 ... e.wav?dl=0

[enigmahack]

I've been carefully listening to the sample again and comparing to the recording, and i find it's very close but not really spot on the original. I remembered the difficulties i had when i tried to edit mine:

When you make the pitch shift (9 semitones down) of the original sample recorded by Tony you get the basic sound but a simple time shifting of the entire sample won't be enough because the final one was stretched on one side and shrieked on another to fit the length of the 4 bars and the independent notes per bar.
So i had to do a little time stretch to the whole sample first, and time shrink the end tail of the sample. I think it is as spot on the original as possible
I'm posting it here in case you want to use it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bk798tj33h0q4 ... e.wav?dl=0

Thanks most excellent - Thanks man!

I definitely could have gotten it closer, but here's the thing I've noticed about working with sounds.

You can get like 80% accuracy in say... 20 minutes.
You can get like 95% accuracy in say... 60 minutes.
You can get like 98% accuracy in say... 240 minutes.

It tends gets exponentially longer the more accurate you want to be. I recognize that it was close enough (95% is close enough for most applications) but having your help with the sample will bring it that much closer.

I appreciate the help

[jorgemncardoso]

I've been carefully listening to the sample again and comparing to the recording, and i find it's very close but not really spot on the original. I remembered the difficulties i had when i tried to edit mine:

When you make the pitch shift (9 semitones down) of the original sample recorded by Tony you get the basic sound but a simple time shifting of the entire sample won't be enough because the final one was stretched on one side and shrieked on another to fit the length of the 4 bars and the independent notes per bar.
So i had to do a little time stretch to the whole sample first, and time shrink the end tail of the sample. I think it is as spot on the original as possible
I'm posting it here in case you want to use it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bk798tj33h0q4 ... e.wav?dl=0

Thanks most excellent - Thanks man!

I definitely could have gotten it closer, but here's the thing I've noticed about working with sounds.

You can get like 80% accuracy in say... 20 minutes.
You can get like 95% accuracy in say... 60 minutes.
You can get like 98% accuracy in say... 240 minutes.

It tends gets exponentially longer the more accurate you want to be. I recognize that it was close enough (95% is close enough for most applications) but having your help with the sample will bring it that much closer.

I appreciate the help

You're welcome it gave me a chance to pick up that sample again perfect it a little more and learn some more about the editing tools.

I know what you mean about those timings... It took me a few hours, but when i'm at 95% i just got to get to 98%, and then 99%, you know... Just can't leave it alone, always tweaking.... When i'm recording i do 50 takes or more and i'm still not happy sometimes... especially when recording guitar...

[jorgemncardoso]

Just tweaked the sample a bit more, besides the already posted sample in the original E key, i've also converted it to mono, so you have a stereo and mono versions (as the original is mono) it sound's slightly different, the mono version is more "in your face" i think. It will probably work best for live use.
I've also included a D key version (stereo and mono) version, as used on the TIOA 2007 tour.

They are identified as E / D Stereo / Mono

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bmgjuu787xqo6 ... 9.rar?dl=0

UPDATE: I've redone the whole thing again (told you i was a bit obsessive with accuracy ), and updated the link above.

I've found out the mais problem with the supposedly "original" sample on Karma Forums, it was pitched down a few semitones insted of being in the right original E key (don't know why:roll:) . That's why i've always had problems with the right tempo when pitching it down to make the final version. I''ve corrected the pitch to the original to E, and then pitched it down the -12 semitones (to E-12) and cut it again, now it fits the correct tempo without any more time stretch tweaks (just like Tony Banks did)

I've also added a looped sample on the clock intro with the kick drum on a loop, you can assign it to repeat with the sustain pedal on.

Here is a little looped example on how the whole thing shoud sound when played together:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jbe70vcnv0on0 ... p.wav?dl=0

[jorgemncardoso]

Update above

[jeremykeys]

I don't know - as Genesis fan I found it hard to tell the difference later on

Hey there Alan, just a quick question since you play in a Genesis tribute band. How do you make the sound for the intro to Watcher of the Skiei?
I'm going to be building the sound on my Kronos.

[jorgemncardoso]

Hi, as far as i know the Watcher sound os two Mellotron sounds stacked together, the brass and the 3 violins, running through a Leslie with a tad of overdrive.
You can get free and great mellotron samples here:
http://www.leisureland.us/audio/Mellotr ... amples.htm
or you can get a free kontakt library made with those samples here:
http://fabel2112.synthpop.com/
You also get a free fairlight factory sample library there if you want

You just need to layer those two sounds and run it through a Leslie or a good SIM and the sound is there.

[keego]

Watcher of the skies uses Bass Accordian, Violins and Brass ran through a leslie. I sampled the vast Mtron Pro using ESC and loaded it into my Kronos and used the Kronos onboard effects. I used this During my time in Genesis Tribute Carpet Crawlers

[keego]

Thats on the original where he used a Mellotron MKII which had the dual keyboard. From Selling England he started using a M400 live so on that tour and the lamb it would indeed have been violins and brass mix.

[BillW]

Those recipes for the Watcher intro are correct. The brass and violins are already in the Kronos. I use bass accordion samples from M-Tron pro in the left hand.

[jorgemncardoso]

Those recipes for the Watcher intro are correct. The brass and violins are already in the Kronos. I use bass accordion samples from M-Tron pro in the left hand.

If you don't mind my asking, are you the same BillW that posted the original "elephant"sample (the riff played by Mike) for "no son of mine" on the karma forums?
If so do you still have the original in wav? The one on karma forums is in mp3, a wav would be better quality...

[jorgemncardoso]

Hi guys, its been a while since the last post. I just thought to do an update on these samples as I worked on them again since I played this song recently.
The sample is fine tuned and as close to the one used by Tony as humanly possible. Included is the sample in the original E key, as well as one in D key as was used on the 2007 tour, and the clock sample at for the beginning of the song.

If anybody wants it you can get it here: https://db.tt/kb0I0C0E

I've also recorded a little clip of the beginning of the song with the sample to give example if how it fits in the mix.
The sounds I used for the instrumental track are the elephant sample and clock sample, and the Ooos pad of the Wavestation, as wel as an electric guitar prog from the Wavestation too.
I've just added Phil's vocal track on top I extracted from my 5.1 mix of the song: https://db.tt/142bpP5h